1199 Panigale

EDIT: Thread name should read Ducati 1199 Panigale.  As CycleWorld and soon to follow other mags will showcase the new Ducati Panigale. It's interesting that Ducati has chose to use the engine as the main stress member connected directly to the head/front forks instead of tube frame of past. The reason it's interesting as how poorly this concept has done in Motogp form. My guess is that as a streetbike the forces would be less than that of GP bike so probably less problematic. However, as Ducati has indicated that the Panigale will be the new platform in WSB starting in 2013 I wonder if they'll experience a similar problem to that of it's GP sibling.  

You mean the 1199 Panigale...

I think the biggest reasons that the monocoque frame concept in the Desmosedici MotoGP machine never did that well was because of the testing restrictions (actual MotoGP riders were limited to the official IRTA tests until this month, when the restrictions were basically lifted and are now limited by tire allotment) and the original carbon construction.

Limiting the testing by contracted MotoGP riders to the official tests hamstrung the Ducati team because they were already behind the eight-ball once Casey Stoner left for Honda. Stoner's riding style doesn't load up the front end for the extended periods that most of the other riders do, so he was able to overcome the front end deficiencies for the most part (although when it did bite him, it bit hard...). The test riders simply don't go fast enough to uncover the problems that afflict the MotoGP riders when they get up to speed.

Complicating matters was the original carbon construction of the monocoque frame components. Because carbon requires long periods to manufacture properly, and because Ducati had to depend on an outside supplier for these parts, the lag time between final design and actual finished part was measured in months, not days like you would with an aluminum frame (note that the twin-spar aluminum frame they've been testing with is not necessarily the configuration they're going to race with in 2012; much more testing is needed and there's a lot of time before the first race of 2012).

Another aspect is the Bridgestone MotoGP spec tires. Their side grip is absolutely phenomenal, which is why you see photos of MotoGP riders attaining incredible angles of lean. That phenomenal side grip from the Bridgestones (and the corresponding higher corner speeds) places loads on the chassis that are not seen anywhere else.

All that said, the reason that Ducati isn't going to homologate the 1199 Panigale for WSBK racing in 2012 is because they want to use the FIM World Superstock class as a racing testbed for the bike. They haven't done a whole lot of racetrack testing miles on the 1199 (if they had, you'd have seen many more spy photos prior to its release), so they need a year to make sure the bike works as a racebike before jumping into the deep end.  

Yes, that's what I meant, thanks for catching that. But in terms of Ducati's MotoGP bike, didn't they use the monocoque frame for several years? While limited time to test makes sense for one season such as this past first season with Rossi at Ducati. But Ducati's engineers have had several years to correct the problems which obviously they haven't. I think, as you noted with Stoner's riding style, Ducati just got lazy as they were getting some results even though other Duc riders weren't.  

Good point about the carbon which is why Rossi forced Ducati to use an aluminum monocoque connection instead of carbon. However, in terms of tires all teams have to deal with that and Ducati should have realized the stress the added lean/cornering speed has on the bike and adjusted or corrected accordingly.

It makes sense for Ducati to wait a year to get the Panigale ready for WSBK. The less stress/power of WSB bikes compared to Motogp bikes may make the 1199 bike have less problems then its sibling GP bike.  

The testing restrictions have been in place since the end of 2007. Ducati knew that they had an issue and were trying to fix it even when Stoner was riding for them, but remember that it's a fine line you have walk when you try to redesign something that is still winning races under your lead rider (i.e., you run the risk of screwing up the combination that allows him to win races while not exactly permitting the other Ducati riders to post winning lap times).  

If Stoner was still riding the Ducati (and most likely still winning races), much of this discussion would probably never exist. Only because Rossi is bringing the Ducati's weaknesses to the fore is the Ducati's chassis becoming a focal point of discussion.

I was only mentioning the Bridgestone tires in reference to your inference of how the 1199 Panigale's similar chassis design to the D16 could be a liability.  

Kento can you rename this thread to 1199 Panigale? I tried but in edit it didn't allow me to adjust the name of the thread.  

Kento I know that Stoner fans try to make him out to be a god but he isn't. I'm sure the problems at Ducati are what fueled him to get out and go to Honda who already developed a winning machine that more than one rider could do well with. Thanks should be given to Pedrosa and other riders who helped develop it.  While at Ducati Stoner wasn't a consistent winner and he crashed almost as much as he won with exception to the year that he won the championship where Ducati stepped in the proverbial poop as they got everything right and the other teams miscalculated on what it would take to win in the first year of the 800's.  Afterwards, Stoner didn't win another Championship with Ducati.

Back to the Panigale, it will be interesting how it will fare in the Superbike arena. Do you think that they'll try to put it into Motogp CRT category? Also, do you think that the Motogp will drop prototypes as the number of factories have dropped to only 3?  

Sorry, didn't see this until today...

A private team (OEMs such as Ducati are forbidden from being directly involved with CRTs) cannot enter the 1199 in the CRT class unless it has a different chassis than the stock unit.

I think eventually the MotoGP formula will move to the CRT style of machine, but hopefully more toward the F1 setup that has manufacturers providing prototype engines while leaving the chassis area up to the teams. I believe that Carmelo Ezpeleta (CEO of Dorna, rightsholders to MotoGP) won't want too close of an emulation of WSBK by using production engines, no matter how modified they are. Right now, they're letting the production-based engines into the class in order to beef up the grid, which would be relatively tiny without the CRTs.  

The rules limit bore to 81mm, so the Panigale could not enter MotoGP. And, a couple of things to consider about the frame and how it relates to MotoGP/Superbike. First, the loads on the frame are quite different between the two classes, some because of the tires and some because of the stronger brakes in MotoGP. Second, don't forget that the engine is part of the frame, and the Panigale engine is quite a bit different in shape and size than the Desmosedici.

Even though the concept is the same between the two bikes, the actual stiffness characteristics of the two chassis will be quite different - as it will have to be.  

First, thank you for correcting the post thread title. Second, thank you on CRT rule and Trevitt's info on bore limit. Lastly, doesn't WSB have limitations that would restrict the Panigale? It will be interesting to see how the Panigale stacks up against other litre bikes and even comparing it to last year's 1198.  

Once it is homologated, the 1199 will be forced to run intake restrictors (the 1198 was mandated to run 50mm restrictor plates in intake tracts with elliptical bore throttle bodies that were an equivalent of 62.9mm diameter). The FIM also stated that they will add weight depending on its finishing ratio compared to the four-cylinders.