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New Honda CBR250R

 
Beeyouel Beeyouel
User | Posts: 83 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/28/10
01:12 PM

Honda’s entry into the 250 sport/street class is a good thing. This new bike will give beginner riders more choices and may encourage first time buyers to take a more serious look at the 250 class as their first bike. However, I still see this 250 class problematic in one area. An overwhelmingly large percentage of potential 250 buyers are afraid they will want to sell their 250 after a year when they feel more skillful. Because of this, they end up buying a bigger bike to start with. An alternative to this problem could be found in Suzuki’s S-DMS (Suzuki Drive Mode Selector) found on the GSX-R600, or similar technologies. Although the GSX-R600 is too much of a bike to start with, the basic idea of de-tuning a more powerful bike with the flip of a switch makes more sense. Better yet, create a 400cc beginner bike with an ultra low seat option for shorter riders and women, and have a drive mode selector which decreases power by 25%, 50%, and 70%. A 400cc bike is plenty powerful, lightweight and with it de-tuned to the power of a 250cc bike, I think a beginner would be better off. Years ago this was not really an option, but with modern electronics it’s almost too simple. Lastly, Honda continues to amaze me. They chose to create a brand new 250cc motorcycle and import it to the US, while continuing to refuse to import the naked Honda CB1000R. They won’t even import a limited number for one year to test the market. Apparently, their marketing department claims Americans want a vomit in your helmet shaft drive automatic transmission sport-bike instead. My 1985 VF1000R is rolling over in it's grave right now. Hey Honda, what was one of the hottest selling bikes of 2010? The chain driven S1000RR, direct from the shaft drive king BMW. Hmmm, sehr interessant!  

 
kento1 kento1
Administrator | Posts: 915 | Joined: 09/07
Posted: 10/28/10
05:20 PM

Unfortunately, Honda's past experience with naked bikes (especially liter-size ones) haven't been fruitful. The old CB1000 of '92-'97 suffered dismal sales, and this was in an era where motorcycle sales were booming.

Depending on novice riders to select the power level that is proper for their skill level is like giving a drug addict the option of checking him/herself out of rehab. You'd hope they won't be tempted to take that wrong route, but the odds are that they will.  

 
Beeyouel Beeyouel
User | Posts: 83 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/29/10
09:31 AM

Yes, the novice rider will be tempted to up the power level, especially if it were a simple switch on the handlebar. But aren’t they essentially doing that by buying a bigger bike to start with? Perhaps the power level could only be changed by a certified mechanic, like on the BMW S1000RR. I believe the rpm are restricted during the break-in period on that bike. The only way to unlock S1000RR rpm lock is to bring it into a dealer. Maybe these ideas are foolish, but it just seems like such a waste to have the ability via electronics to reduce a larger cc bike's HP so beginners don’t feel pushed into buying a more powerful bike to start with.

With regards to Honda’s past experience with the naked class bike, why did they push it for 5 years if the sales were so dismal? Why didn’t they pull it out of the US market after two years if they weren’t selling? Of course 1992 was 18 years ago and I believe things have changed here. The US is warming to the naked bike class. As you know the KTM Duke, as well as the Ducati Monster and Kaw Z1000 are being sold here. If the sales are not there to support the product, then I understand - that's the bottom line. But these manufactures obviously don’t agree with Honda. They must have a good reason.  

 
kento1 kento1
Administrator | Posts: 915 | Joined: 09/07
Posted: 10/29/10
11:57 AM

Yes, the novice rider will be tempted to up the power level, especially if it were a simple switch on the handlebar. But aren’t they essentially doing that by buying a bigger bike to start with? Perhaps the power level could only be changed by a certified mechanic, like on the BMW S1000RR. I believe the rpm are restricted during the break-in period on that bike. The only way to unlock S1000RR rpm lock is to bring it into a dealer. Maybe these ideas are foolish, but it just seems like such a waste to have the ability via electronics to reduce a larger cc bike's HP so beginners don’t feel pushed into buying a more powerful bike to start with.

The different engine maps on today's sportbikes' electronics have now progressed beyond the early days of reducing levels of engine power by simply reducing overall engine power across the board, as with the Suzuki GSX-Rs. They are now at the point where they only affect throttle response, with the top-end power basically the same, which is what they were intended to do in the first place (the new GSX-R600 and 750 now no longer have the old "C" map that reduced top-end power drastically; the "B" map now only affects initial throttle response).
Simply artificially reducing the power levels of a literbike to accommodate misguided newbies isn't the answer, as you're basically designing parts of the bike down to the lowest common denominator, not one who has worked his way up. By doing something like that, the manufacturers would also be tacitly acknowledging that it's OK for a person with no riding experience to ride a literbike, which is not what anyone wants. Also, just because literbikes and 600s have the same basic wheelbase and weight specifications doesn't mean they handle and brake exactly the same.

With regards to Honda’s past experience with the naked class bike, why did they push it for 5 years if the sales were so dismal? Why didn’t they pull it out of the US market after two years if they weren’t selling? Of course 1992 was 18 years ago and I believe things have changed here. The US is warming to the naked bike class. As you know the KTM Duke, as well as the Ducati Monster and Kaw Z1000 are being sold here. If the sales are not there to support the product, then I understand - that's the bottom line. But these manufactures obviously don’t agree with Honda. They must have a good reason.

If the sales weren't dismal, you'd still see the CB1000 in American Honda's lineup, and/or see other large displacement naked bikes being offered. Just because the manufacturers have them in their lineups doesn't mean that the market for them is growing; there are many other factors at work, including the parent company basically forcing the American subsidiary to carry those models in some cases.  Regardless, the numbers of naked bikes sold compared to all the others is still much smaller than all the other categories.  

 
Beeyouel Beeyouel
User | Posts: 83 | Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/29/10
02:45 PM

I agree. However, I wasn’t trying to suggest that someone could buy a liter bike as a first bike, or even a 600 because they had a drive mode selector. I only mentioned the S1000RR only as an example of an RPM lock. I still see an advantage to a drive mode selector that reduces engine power across the board as a tool for new riders.

It’s interesting to note that the California Superbike School has their students start off in the lowest engine mapping (rain mode) on the S1000RR. As they get more comfortable, they can move up the power if their coach agrees. Again, I am not suggesting that this is an apple to apples comparison, or suggesting that a drive mode selector could allow a new rider to buy a liter bike. Only that such a selector could be helpful to beginners that don’t want to start on a 250.  Like I said before, a 400cc bike with an engine mapping that reduced top-end power drastically, might keep newbie’s from buying a 600 or even a liter bike, and keep them from having a bad accident.

As far as naked bikes go, I guess the numbers don’t lie. If people aren’t buying them, there is no reason to bring them here. It’s odd though, there are so many websites devoted exclusively to converting your sport bike into a street fighter class. I know purists will argue that there are substantial differences between a street fighter and a naked bike, like customized extreme performance vs. a de-tuned mild looking commuter, but that style is popping up more and more.

Thanks  

 
kento1 kento1
Administrator | Posts: 915 | Joined: 09/07
Posted: 10/29/10
03:15 PM

I understand your point, and I agree it has some benefits in countering the "I don't want a bike I'm going to outgrow in a year" newbie syndrome. The problem is that too many people in this country feel that requiring additional qualifications (requiring a visit to a dealer to unlock the extra power) to ride whatever motorcycle they want is an infringement on their personal freedoms. There's plenty of bigger bikes that are easy to handle with mellow power (SV650, Ninja 650R), but a lot of misguided newbies don't want them because they're not the supersport machines like the GSX-Rs and ZX-6R/10R.

Suzuki dropped the "C" mode from its engine map selector because they found that after interviewing dozens of focus groups around the world made up of riders with varying riding experience, no one ever used it. The engine mode selector on the GSX-Rs became a well-known feature (accompanied by the misconception that the modes gave you the power of a 600, 750, or 1000 with the GSX-R1000), yet no one - not even admitted novices - ever thought the C mode was useful, on any of the GSX-Rs. So whether you give them the option or require them to visit the dealer to get it, it's not an idea that has the potential to sell many bikes.

I asked Keith Code about the fact that his students (many of whom could easily be considered novice riders - he does not train first-time riders) are being trained on S 1000 RRs. He noted that since the school started using the BMW, his crash rates dropped dramatically. He has no real factual information on the cause, but he theorizes that because it's a literbike with so much power, the novice riders are very careful with the throttle...not that the riding modes are the major reason. Note that it's still possible to crash (and even highside) a BMW in Rain mode.

We thought at one time that the proliferation of brand/model enthusiast websites meant that there was a market for particular model. What it turned out to be is that there's a difference between traffic on a forum that consists of an actual 50-100 enthusiasts, and an actual market for a bike that requires numbers in the high five figures.  

 

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