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Brake-bleeding tips?
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Fuhrer
User
| Posts: 70
| Joined: 12/09
Posted: 09/20/10 03:58 PM
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I installed some Galfer Gp-style brake lines on my R6 (1 line from master cylinder that T's into 2 lines for the calipers just like the stock rubber line does). Anyway, after bleeding the system a few times, leaving the brake lever compressed overnight, bleeding again, and trying everything I can, there is still some air in there somewhere. The lever is about as stiff as with the stock lines, but still a little spongy. Stopping power is definitely not what it should be. Any tips on how to get the rest of the air out? I'd rather not have to order a vacuum type device, but if that is the only way I will. Other "tricks" I've tried is to tap the brake lines, calipers, and master cylinder before bleeding. I read somewhere about air getting stuck up near the master cylinder where the banjo bolt is. Should I loosen the banjo bolt and squeeze the lever then tighten? Also, I bled the Master first, then right caliper, then left. Because this is a 1 into 2 line system, do I have to bleed both calipers at the same time? Please help! I have my first track day/school coming up in a week.
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 915
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 09/21/10 08:24 AM
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Air bubbles getting trapped up by the master cylinder banjo bolt connection is such a common occurrence that many manufacturers have a bleeder valve right on the banjo bolt itself (or very close by on the master cylinder itself).
You need to make sure you have a shop rag wrapped around the banjo bolt connection, because when you loosen it under pressure, any air trapped will spray out, and hydraulic fluid coming in contact with any of your bodywork or windscreen is a bad deal. Make sure there's good pressure on the brake lever, and loosen the banjo bolt carefully.
Also, the order of bleeding should be from the farthest point away from the master cylinder first, then in order back to the master cylinder last.
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Fuhrer
User
| Posts: 70
| Joined: 12/09
Posted: 09/21/10 01:19 PM
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Thanks, I'll try bleeding in that order first, and if that doesn't stiffen up the lever more, I'll try the banjo bolt.
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Trevitt
Administrator
| Posts: 295
| Joined: 11/99
Posted: 09/22/10 01:48 PM
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If you do brakes regularly, it's worth getting a banjo bolt with the bleeder screw in it. That really speeds things up.
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Fuhrer
User
| Posts: 70
| Joined: 12/09
Posted: 09/26/10 04:14 PM
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Well, I spent some time bleeding this weekend to no avail. I used the method Kento mentioned(farthest caliper first, other caliper, then M/C) and I got a few small air bubbles. Still the lever didn't have a really stiff feel. Then I pumped the lever, held it in really hard and loosed the M/C banjo. That didn't work either. Basically the lever still feels the same. I bled each position on the bike until no air bubbles were present and only fluid was coming out. Could there still be air in there? If so, how do I get it out? Or mayble I'm over-estimating what braided lines should feel like? I would think they'd be noticeably stiffer than stock?
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 915
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 09/26/10 11:08 PM
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Did you change the brake pads with the brake line change?
Another method to try is to push the caliper pistons all the way in (retract them into the caliper) manually. Before you do this, you need to make sure the fluid level in the reservoir is down near the lower limit line on the reservoir (should be marked "MIN" or something similar). The reason for this is because when you push the pistons in, you're displacing brake fluid back up the system. Disconnect the calipers, and use a pair of channel lock pliers or something similar to push the piston in; just try to push them in until the piston is flush with the caliper, don't try to push them all the way in, because you may run past the seal. By doing this, you'll be pushing any air pockets in the master cylinder back up past the master cylinder piston. Then, reattach the calipers, and-- while watching the fluid reservoir level to ensure that it doesn't get too low-- start pumping the lever to get the pistons to seat. You'll probably need to put a few miles on the brakes to get the pads fully seated against the disc, as sometimes the pads get slightly hung up on the slide pins, and the pads' seating position against the discs can be slightly different.
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Fuhrer
User
| Posts: 70
| Joined: 12/09
Posted: 09/27/10 01:49 PM
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I didn't change the pads because they still have plenty of thickness on them. I do have new pads that are ready to go on whenever I need them, so is that something I should do? Funny you mentioned this caliper method, because I was thinking about doing something similar. I thought maybe I should loosen the bleed screw and then push the pistons back to see if air was in the caliper. I'll try your method and probably install the new pads while I'm at it. Thanks again, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to answer!
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 915
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 09/27/10 02:06 PM
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Do not try to push the caliper pistons back with a loose bleed screw; the pressure will be extremely high, and you'll not only make a mess, but also probably introduce air into the brake system as well.
If the pads have plenty of life left on them, there's no reason to change them. However, if you had recently installed new pads, the fact that they weren't bedded in yet would go a long way toward explaining the lack of braking power (and even slight mushiness at the lever).
Just carefully push the pistons back into the caliper with a large set of pliers, being careful to watch the fluid level in the reservoir; chances are you may need to remove some fluid in order to keep it from overflowing. And when you pushed all the pistons in and then reinstalled the pads and calipers, be sure to watch the fluid level so that it doesn't get too low and expose the m/c piston.
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Posted: 09/27/10 03:17 PM
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Sometimes it just takes lots of squeezing and bleeding. One time for me it took hours. Things have to calm down - tiny air bubbles have to settle out and merge together. The air is more or less dissolved in the fluid; tiny bubbles have to coalesce into larger bubbles.
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Fuhrer
User
| Posts: 70
| Joined: 12/09
Posted: 09/27/10 05:28 PM
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Ok, this all makes sense. I think I'll be okay if I am more patient. I have my Penguin school this friday and I think I was just impatient. The brakes do work pretty good (about as good as w/stock lines), it's just that the lever isn't as stiff as I would expect it to be with the braided lines. I do notice that everytime I go back and bleed them, there is a few more little bubbles, but everytime I bleed all the airbubbles out the lever still feels a little squishy. I'll be good for my school, Loudon isn't very hard on the brakes from what I can tell. After that I'll spend more time bleeding and trying Kento's idea. I have already gone through almost a whole bottle of Galfer Super Dot 4 fluid, but I bought 2! Thanks again... .
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rolyatpc
New User
| Posts: 11
| Joined: 03/10
Posted: 10/26/10 06:06 AM
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Hey bro, you should also be replacing the copper seal washers if you crushed them more than couple of times, dont believe that tripe about "anealing" with a torch or over the stove, it doesnt work!!!! Whats your life worth? Also, when you are bleeding your brakes,take your time,do it right. If you pump a master too quickly it will cause "airation" of the fluid, microscopic bubbles that are very difficult to detect in DOT4 fluid. Always bleed the M/C banjo last, I can assure you that is where its hiding,doesnt take much! And remember, TAKE YOUR TIME!!!. Sometimes it takes as much as a couple of days,I know,i do it for a living. And theres no such thing as "bolt on application!" If your problem persists, youve got bad seal washers in the system. Air can!,and will be drawn back when every thing comes back to rest. Brake lever vibration is a big contributor to this. You can check this just by maintaining a light 1 finger tension on the lever while your riding, believe me, it may sound crazy,but I've experienced it first hand!
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