Feedback on the September 2010 Issue

Dear Kent et al,

I've enjoyed your magazine for many years. However, I must take issue with your somewhat derogatory sub-heading on your MV Agusta F4 cover story: "Dismiss at your peril, this ain't no poser". I suggest you take a trip to MVAgusta.net. You will find a vibrant community of MV Agusta enthusiast with many who use their Tamburini-designed masterpieces the way he intended them to be used, and are not "posers". For example, here is a link to a video of me on my 2007 F4 1000R at a track day on Daytona International Speedway, passing dozens of Japanese literbikes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cizr8K3kczk

Also, your article on Alpinestars appeared to be simply fawning over a big advertiser in an obvious PR spin. It is a bit ludicrous to show the Italian hand-made specialty division of Alpinestars that custom makes all the apparel for their highly-paid professional racers, when the overwhelming majority of their product for sale are mass-manufactured by lower-quality Asian suppliers. I purchased a $1,000 retail SP-1 one-piece suit (made in Vietnam) based on all this marketing and it failed spectacularly in a 65 mph track low-side. Left with gravel embedded in my  elbow directly where their armor and double-layer of leather is placed, I inquired directly to their US office. Of course no suit can protect against every fall, so I was offered a "discount" on the repair of the suit that clearly did not do its job. Here is the video of the simple crash (yes, again on my MV F4 1000R): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AqeIjsFcuI  

Your painting of the company in such a positive light runs quite contrary to what racer forums' consensus opinion is of the mass-market products they shill to consumers and my experience is the truth behind their massive marketing machine. I guess I would have a great opinion of them as well if they gave me a custom suit and gear to wear at press junkets and parade on the cover of your magazine.

Sorry for the rant, but this is exactly why American magazines fall so far behind British and European publications that generally give unbiased reviews instead of sacrificing their journalistic integrity for the sake of ad dollars. You guys can do better for sure.

Jeff  

One more thing about the previous-generation MV Agusta *** It won the 2007 Master Bike competition in Europe, against the best bikes of that year regardless of origin. Poser what?

Jeff  

Umm, Jeff...The Alpinestar gear is top shelf...the whole factory is churning out Top grade gear, that anyone can buy.

Alpinestars does outsource (and it is labeled & Priced as such) To Asian suppliers..I just saw some low priced made in China with Alpinestars logo Boots..I put them back on the shelf.

You could do that as well.

Sport Rider Mag is the best Mag we have.  

Thanks Lou. For the same $1,000 that I did choose to spend on Alpinestars, now I know you can get made-in-USA custom-fit Pilot or Syed leathers that I guarantee are superior to the same price point SP-1 overseas-produced suit.

My point is that the SportRider article only focused on their hand-made products and the efforts to support their factory racers, which they pay as part of their marketing campaign. I find that a bit disingenuous since the products that most people can afford from them are the ones that are produced overseas and likely of much lesser quality/durability, which I found out first hand. I am stating my opinion that it is a bit of a bait-and-switch that they are so involved in motorsports but all the products you see used by racers are hand-made in Italy for them (remember the article's picture of molds of the boots sized to individual racers).  The failure in truth-in-advertising are the full-page ads in SportRider with Stoner, Spies and Hayden holding made-in-China $475 Supertech R boots when that's not even what they ride in! You can't even buy the ones they wear and the only Alpinestars suit you can buy that is made-in-Italy is the Race Replica suit at $2499.

An example of truth-in-advertising successes is Sidi boots, which are ALL made in Italy and the same price as the Chinese Supertech Rs. Other examples are Held Gloves and Knox Armor.

Obviously I'm upset with Alpinestars because IMHO they didn't stand behind their inferior product, which is why I've made a conscious decision to never buy another Alpinestars product and share my negative experience and observations with the company and its products. I'm not the only one, if you go the WERA forums or any other true racer forum you will hear dozens of stories like mine, too bad I didn't know that before.

Like I said in my original post, I've been a fan of SportRider (and Kent Kunitsugu and Andrew Trevitt) for a long time, since the early 90's in fact. But it seems to  me that the magazine has "sold out" to advertisers in the last few years, perhaps its due to the new ownership. If you truly want to read the best "sport" bike magazine around, just pick up a copy of RoadRacing World and Motorcycle Technology. They are still independent and don't pull any punches when it comes to reviews. Their opinions on whether a motorcycle or a piece of gear works or not is based on fact and experience with no apparent regard to monthly or annual advertising contracts. That's probably the reason the results in their magazine tends to differ from the typical newsstand motorcycle magazines.

Jeff  

I can (kinda) understand your viewpoint here Jeff.

But...I'm as happy as can be with Sport Rider content.  I don't race, If I did, I'd be looking to Road Racing World.

I take a liter Race replica (for the performance/lightest weight/ Competition created components and chassis geometry)  And..then make the modifications to make it that highest performance package, taylored to my exact requirements of use.

I find Sport Rider to be the correct info for my world.

It's a world of tight steep knarly old narrow roads, high altitude,  and the 05 ZX-10R is the weapon of choice.

Talk about Hyper Motard..no bike coming out of a factory as a Hyper Motard has the insane power delivery, or the eagerness to flick over in transitions, as my bike has.

Or has a fairing to split the wind before my body gets it (this is and issue at mid triple digits).

My modifications were..Z1000 top triple clamp and handle bars..Scotts Damper..forks raised 5/8ths of and inch in clamps to quicken and sharpen the moves desired in blind corners (no down side of reduced stability, came up) Race Tech total conversion on internals (shim stacks etc chosen by Tony in R&D) Pirelli Diablo Corsa III tires.. Just switched to Metzeler Interact Z-6's and they are proving out to be as good in all respects, and promise touring tire milage, as well.

So...I'm a happy (estatic) camper    

Thanks for the props, louemc. We try our best to provide unbiased coverage of the world of sportbikes, but sometimes even those efforts can be misinterpreted because of someone with an axe to grind. I try not to get involved in discussions like this, because they usually end up in a tit-for-tat argument due to the various agendas of those involved, but I'll make an exception here.

Jeff, apologies that I seemed to offend your brand loyalties with my subhead that included the term "poser", but what I meant there is not how I myself or the magazine interpret the MV brand, but how much of the general sportbike public tends to look at any "exclusive" brand.

Yes, the MV won Masterbike that year. But did you know that MV was one of the companies that came to the circuit early for a full day of testing to make sure that the settings, etc, were completely sorted before the Masterbike test began? Not to take anything away from the company's achievement, but not all that fair for those that didn't spend the time/money to test beforehand, no?

Next, our coverage of the Alpinestars GP support crew was not intended to portray that Alpinestars and every single one of its products are infallible; that is what you are inferring from it. We were only reporting on what we witnessed at their GP rider support/hospitality area, and their Asolo factory where their R&D facility is located.

No company is infallible, especially when it comes to safety gear. Should I go into detail about how a Held glove failed on me in a "simple" 60 mph lowside 10 years ago? No, because I know they make decent products, otherwise they wouldn't have survived this long. As you said yourself, no suit, glove, or any other safety gear product can be guaranteed to protect you from absolutely any crash, no matter how "simple" it may appear.

While many of the racing leathers we wear may be custom-made, we've also worn their off-the-rack middle-priced leather suits and gear; you just haven't noticed because they are worn in tests that aren't on the latest and greatest sportbikes. Note also that the gloves and boots they provide for us are off the shelf, not some custom-made deal that you infer with your rant. In fact, I've crashed in Alpinestars gear that wasn't "custom" at 100+ mph, and it did its job well (and by the way, every boot company involved in MotoGP has foot molds and custom-makes boots for their racers...Sidi, Alpinestars, Gaerne, Dainese, etc.).

You seem to basing your intrepretation of the company on one bad experience, which is understandable considering human nature. Although I find it curious how they offered to repair the suit at a discount, yet you state they did not "stand behind their product"? Do you feel they should have repaired it for free? I'm kind of confused there.

"Sacrificing journalistic integrity for the sake of ad dollars" is a common refrain for those with an axe to grind with us. The problem with that accusation is, what ad dollars? Take a look through that issue and tell us where the big $$ two-page spread Alpinestars ad is in return for that editorial coverage. What about a single page ad? A half page? A fractional 1/8 page ad? There's gotta be something?
In fact, why not look through all the issues for 2010, and see how many actual total ad pages Alpinestars has compared to other apparel companies. Tell us what you find. I know you're going to go pretty far back before you even find one Alpinestars ad.  

Kent,

Thanks for taking the time to personally reply. You are a class act. I have finally gotten over my rant so I am indeed thinking a bit more clearly.

I didn't know about MV booking the track for pre-MasterBike testing, a definite advantage for sure that I would objectively call unfair in light of the nature of MasterBike. Still impressive though for a 7-year old design with upgraded motor and suspension to beat the biggest and best, though.

Touché on your experience with the Held gloves. It was such as simple crash (watch the video link I provided if you get a chance) and the injury I received was not commensurate with what I believe the suit should have protected. Perhaps I got a Vietnamese suit made on a Monday? I've crashed on the street and track at speeds from 40 to 120 so I do have a perspective on that. I did expect Alpinestars to replace the suit or repair it for free, especially when I had video evidence of the crash and you could see clearly where the suit failed to keep the armor in place and how quickly the leather went through. At the time the modest discount off an expensive repair service (there are independent leather suit repair shops like Barnacle Bill's Leather repair and others charging half) was like a slap in the face.

As I repeated, I am a long-time fan of the editorial staff at SR, and I have the last 4 years or so of back issues so I'm not doubting your claims about the advertising. I just hope the parent company doesn't exert pressure to increase ad sales so that you are forced to make any compromises.

Keep up the great work and I'll be watching your "journalistic integrity"

Jeff  

Jeff,

I want to thank you for reading Sport Rider, and for taking the time to read my reply instead of becoming overly defensive. My reply was not meant to be demeaning or arrogant or "know it all"-- only informative.

Yes, the MV setup at Masterbike was a little bit unfair, but I have to give MV credit for taking the test so seriously. That said, I'm not fond of a test where everything is ultimately dependent on which bike turned the quickest lap time.

I looked at the video you linked to, and while I'm sorry that your MV hit the ground and that you suffered injuries, I'm not seeing where "you could see clearly where the suit failed to keep the armor in place and how quickly the leather went through." Was that another video? I also don't doubt your claim about the crash and injuries suffered from the suit not working properly, but I couldn't see anywhere on the live portion of the video that clearly shows you wearing the Alpinestars leathers in question.

Please note I'm not attempting to justify anything here, but I should also point this out: the reason that sponsored professional racers are often always given custom-fitted  riding gear is because that way the company can be absolutely sure that the gear is fit correctly on the rider's body so that the armor or other protective features don't get pushed or rolled over during a crash (thus exposing the body to possible harm). I'm not saying this was the case in your incident, but all it takes is one portion of the suit to be ill-fitted on the rider's body, and a simple crash can result in the armor or double layers to roll or get pushed aside, leaving a section that wasn't meant to handle severe abrasion or impact exposed. Obviously it's too expensive and time-consuming to fit everyone with custom-fitted leathers, so off-the-rack suits are always a bit of a compromise in that respect. For companies like Alpinestars, Dainese, RS Taichi, etc., if it were possible for them, they would have everyone suited up with custom-fitted leathers.

I've been at the helm of the magazine long enough for the company to know that they can't pressure me to compromise the editorial integrity of the magazine for the sake of ad sales, even in tough times like we're in now. Granted, there have been ads placed in the magazine that I wasn't too happy about, but I'm far too busy with the editorial to have time to check out each and every ad to make sure it passes muster.

Again, thanks for reading Sport Rider, and for writing in to the forum.  

Low price ill fitting suits are better than no suits.  

I spent many years riding too fast for the gear, or lack of it, that I wore.  That was because leathers were not affordable to me or to my peers.  The high cost of leathers also limited the number of people who could afford to get onto the race track.  Now, with globalization, leathers made in Vietnam or Pakistan or India or China are more accessible to more riders.  

The consequent increased volume of sales allows for more product offerings, more manufacturers inventing new ways to build better suits, helmets, gloves.  The increased volume also pays for prototypes that the professional riders try first; it pays for advances in the technology - articulation, fit, hard/soft padding, airbags, and so on.  

No, it is error to knock products that make safety more affordable, which increase the volume of sales by way of low prices, and which thereby encourage innovation.  Please, please, accept a less than perfect level of protection in exchange for those benefits.  If you want the best, pay for it, and having enjoyed a low price, don't complain that it falls short of perfect.  

Thanks again Kent. I've learned about properly fitting leathers from your previous writings, so I pay attention to such things. I chose the SP-1 because I could actually try several sizes at Cycle Gear and make sure I got one that fit properly. The suit fit perfectly in the upper body. Specifically, it was very snug on my arms, shoulders and chest with my back and chest protectors in place. In fact, if it was any more snug on my forearms I would likely lose feelings in my hands. Here again is the video of the wreck (it occurs at 2:09):

YouTube Video of MV Agusta F4 Crash at Jennings GP

The crash was a low-side around 60-70 mph. You can see the rear tire slid on the exit of the corner, almost high-siding me but I cut the throttle just enough to prevent that but unfortunately the front tucked from the weight transfer before I could recover. When the bike did fall, I was already close to the ground and first touched down on my knee, somewhat slowing the second impact which was on my elbow. This is where the armor and leather of the arm shifted in the short 10-15 feet I was on the pavement, immediately wearing through to my skin. The bike starts to spin on the foot peg and you can see how short the distance of the slide was before I hit the dirt and also see the holes in my suit arm. At the very end of the video you can see me getting up and looking down at my arm because it was already burning from the road rash. Here are pictures of the damaged suit and the abrasions to my arm:







As I mentioned, I've crashed at the track before in Spidi and Dainese leathers at much higher speeds, sliding for much longer distances with no injuries other than bruises and soreness from the impact. This is why I was disappointed in the Alpinestars SP-1 ($1,000 MSRP) suits performance. I shared all of this information with their CA office and that's when I was disappointed in their response of a slight discount for the repair of the suit, when I thought the suit failed to provide protection within reasonable limits and it should have been replaced.

Hopefully, this thread will help others that are shopping for leathers and help them understand fit and protection in likely crash scenarios.

Edited to show pictures and link to YouTube video.
Jeff  

xbacksideslider - you bring up an excellent point. It is wonderful that so many competitors have come into the market, as competition typically drives quality up and prices down. I can remember 20 years ago when the only available options were far beyond my college-student budget, and like you I rode far beyond the safety of the gear I was able to afford.

I'm not denigrating products produced in Asian countries, as some of the most expensive goods we Americans purchase - computers - are ALL produced in China or Taiwan. My point is that some companies make marketing claims and and insinuations about the quality of their products that are not realities. We do have to be wary of companies that are outsourcing just for lowest cost and not managing their suppliers well, especially when it comes to safety products like leathers, armor and helmets.

Again, this is an area where Sport Rider has been ground-breaking in their objective analysis of the helmet industry with their article on helmet standards that did influence helmet development.

My dissatisfaction in the original post was not with Alpinestars cheapest leathers, it was with a set that was supposed to be a mid-to-high level.

If I were in the market for affordable leathers, I would likely go with the Frank Thomas XTi model at Cycle Gear, because it frankly (pun intended) copies some design areas of more-expensive suits for $500 or less and comes with lifetime and 100% satisfaction guarantees.

Jeff  

I edited my 2nd to last post so you could see the pictures of the crash-damaged leathers and left arm, plus a direct link to the YouTube on-board video of the MV Agusta F4 crash at Jennings GP in North Florida.

Jeff  

Those Leathers aren't race weight as I've thought race weight meant.  They look like race style, but for anyone that doesn't expect so much from their leathers.

Since I'm not active in racing...I could be wrong as can be about what is required, though.

I just know, wanting the max possible if it is ever needed, I had Race weight made in a style that looks sorta street.  With full race quality Body armor (T-Pro) everywhere.  More ventilation zippers than race style leather have though.

My stuff is thick, I read somewhere that a certain thickness is required, and when it is there, a certain thing happens in a slide...The leather morphs from what it was, under the heat and pressure of the contact and the slide...into something that resembles a hocky puck, hard and tough.

I think a rider makes a choice..and then has to live with that choice.

Oddly enough (really has nothing to do with this case) The place that made my leathers, to my design, did a lot of repair work.  They had a Textile suit with leather knee/arm/elbow/shoulder patches for the added leather protection spots.

Whoever crashed with that suit, had gotten most of the visable slide damage on his knee.   The spot was partial leather and partial off the leather and in the Balistic Nylon.  The leather lost it's color but was pretty fully still as thick as it had been.  The Nylon was gone, it was a hole all the way through.  So what was ground on, on the inside of the hole, was the guys knee (and we all know how skin and bone fair in a contest with pavement.  

The thickness of the leather isn't the deciding factor in how well it will perform against abrasion or tearing. I've seen brand new "race weight"-thick leather come apart on a rider in a 40 mph highside as he was coming out of the pits (cold tire).

The quality of the leather (what portions of the hide it's cut from) and especially the tanning process are what make the difference.

While obviously leather that is less than 1mm thick won't really be suitable for a race suit, just because a suit's leather is 1.5mm or thicker doesn't mean it is superior. I wore a set of 1.2mm-thick RS Taichi leathers for three years of racing at Willow Springs and Sear Point that endured at least five high-speed crashes without requiring repair.

It's pretty obvious from the photos that the leathers "rolled" pretty severely on the rider's arm when he hit the ground, judging by the abrasion spots on the leather versus where the rider's injuries are located on his arm. The abrasions are above the hard armor on top of the forearm, while the injuries are located literally right on the rider's elbow.  

Kent, I appreciate your continued comments and insight. You are correct, the leathers did roll out of proper position and wore through very quickly allowing the abrasions to my elbow. IMHO, the leathers fit properly, i.e. very snugly with the suit armor in the proper position covering where I was eventually abraded.

I had another thought. I've seen pictures of you in magazines in the pits during tire/bike tests wearing a polyester undersuit. I wasn't wearing a dedicated undersuit, but I was wearing a long-sleeve Dupont Coolmax-type top to promote persperation wicking and also enable easier on/off of the suit during session breaks. Do you think the relative "slickness" of the polyester could have promoted the suit "rolling" over in the crash? Have you ever seen or heard of this happening?

Jeff