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Is there a conspiracy within the Motorcycle Industry
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Historian
New User
| Posts: 22
| Joined: 07/08
Posted: 08/03/09 04:11 AM
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In the last motorcycle popularity period of the 60's and 70's, there were gobs of motorcycles in 200's, 300's, 400's cc range, but suddenly there is little choice in those engine sizes. Now there are many who say that there is no market for the smaller displacements, but the numbers don't support that thought as the number one selling Kawasaki is a 250cc Ninja sportbike. I've also found that if anyone tries to discuss the smaller displacements there are immediate demeaning remarks, as if your manhood depends on riding a bad ass 600-1400cc sport bike or a 900-2000cc cruiser. It finally hit me who is behind this push to force the bikes to ever higher displacements and higher weights. It's the manufacturers who need that kind of bike to make the level of profits there stock holders/financial institutions demand. The entry level, novice, and weekend riders are suffering, big time. I'm guilty of that to, owning a Triumph Sprint RS(955cc), but this weekend I got to ride my friends new Hyosung 250 sportbike, and I must say I was so skeptical too. He rode his old Yamaha yzf600r (1997) and I rode the 250, and at first I was a little self conscious that someone would see me on such a small displacement bike. Wow! That didn't last long, in fact after 15 minutes I was grinning from ear to ear. You see I forgot how much fun it is to ride a bike for the sheer enjoyment of riding, darting from corner to corner. I wasn't missing the bigger engine because I was having fun doing what people should be doing when they ride and that's riding the bike rather than the bike dictating how we must ride just because it has a big powerful motor or worse too much weight. I was able to crank the throttle up almost anytime without the fear of lifting the wheel or high siding the bike.
Now I have to ask myself why would only one Japanese company, Kawasaki provide a hint of a small bike and it doesn't even have fuel injection (same for the Hyosung). Don't we deserve the best bikes available in all sizes, I mean the rest of the world gets them. With the growth of scooters in the USA, it proves that many people are looking to get away from having the bejesus scared out of themselves every time they ride.
NOTE: I've excluded the ANCIENT 20 year old 500cc bikes from both Suzuki and Kawasaki. If they had improved the quality of the bike like the 250's have, then I would include them in this discussion as available quality bikes. Only the 250cc Hyosung has the option to put Z-rated high performance radials on their bike, something even Kawasaki failed to do when they redesigned their wonderful new 250.
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 343
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 08/03/09 09:02 AM
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Your conspiracy theory is a little on the Quixotic side.
Yes, the Ninja 250R has been Kawasaki's best selling motorcycle, but that's only been for the past couple of years, and primarily because gas prices went through the roof. The manufacturers have been trying for years to get U.S. consumers interested in small-displacement bikes, but Americans unfortunately just aren't interested. If the market for small displacement bikes was greater, then the manufacturers would be clamoring to offer motorcycles in that category, because the profit margins are actually greater there than they are for the bigger displacement machines (hence part of the reason why you don't see EFI on the smaller displacement bikes). The tooling costs have already been paid for with the parts-bin structure of the small bikes. Which is also a big portion of the reason why the Ninja 250R is such a good seller right now-- its low sticker price.
The Suzuki GS500 and 250/500 Ninjas all have 17-inch rims now, so you can easily fit stickier tires on them. Not really any need to put tires on them that are rated for over 149mph...
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Historian
New User
| Posts: 22
| Joined: 07/08
Posted: 08/03/09 03:47 PM
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Small disagreements: there aren't any other examples of bikes not selling that are of modern design small displacements. The two 500's you said had 17 inch rims also have ancient bias ply tires not radials, nor are radials recommended (oversize required). The reason the smaller displacements have good mark ups, is because they are ancient. The new 250's don't have large mark ups (from the dealer). You never explained away the explosion of small displacement scooters.
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 343
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 08/03/09 05:51 PM
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The reason that small displacement motorcycles are in demand right now is because of the fuel price jump in the past two years, not because of any inherent incidental appeal in performance. This is the same reason for the "explosion of small displacement scooters" (which actually right now are down over 75% sales-wise from a year ago). Go back about 5-10 years and small-displacement sales numbers weren't exactly earth-shattering, which is why their production numbers were small. This resulted in a slew of backorders when sales jumped in recent years, because dealers and manufacturer warehouses were quickly depleted of their scant available stock.
The Bridgestone BT45 may not be the latest and greatest, but it's more than sufficient for the bike's intended purpose. Racers of both the Ninja 250R and 500R are getting good results using the Bridgestone BT090 radial tires in standard 110 front and slightly oversized 140 rears with no problems whatsoever. Suzuki GS500 can use the same tires. And yes, the tires wear well, they aren't 2000-mile wonders.
When I refer to profitability of a motorcycle, I'm not talking about dealer markup; I'm referring to how much the bike actually costs to manufacture. Yes, the parts-bin construction of the smaller bikes can be from older models, but that's why they do it, because the main appeal of smaller displacement motorcycles is their low price--but at the same time that means more profitability for the manufacturer because there's no major dollars spent on R&D and especially new tooling.
It's in the manufacturers' best interest to give the public what they want, so that they can sell as much product as possible in a category that is still considered a discretionary purchase.
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snorch
New User
| Posts: 1
| Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/11/09 06:17 AM
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Historian , we are on the same page I sent you a PM check it out to see what I have in the works on 200-250cc.
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Posted: 10/19/09 05:28 PM
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For me, nothing would be cooler than a retro Ducati 250/350/450 Desmo, or better still, styled as a Diana MK III, wearing a 1098ish cylinder head.
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nolaandy
New User
| Posts: 8
| Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/22/09 08:30 AM
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I don't know if it's a conspiracy. Small displacement bikes are available everywhere else but here. Part of small bike unavailability is the inability of two-strokes to pass emissions requirements. The number one issue is mentioned above, a majority of riders equate their bike with their manhood. When I bought my current ride (2001 SV650) the salesman did everything he could to steer me to a liter bike. After all, I'd been riding for 37 years at the time. How embarrassing to be seen on a girly bike!
I am considering a small, around town bike, probably a Ninja 250 since that's what's available. I would have bought one back then but comfy freeway riding was a requisite.
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tclause
New User
| Posts: 49
| Joined: 10/09
Posted: 10/23/09 06:14 AM
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I think part of the 250 problem is the 70 mph speed limit on the interstate. This realy controls demand therefore controls supply. Not to say that you can't go 70 mph on a 250 but ninja is at 70 to 80 percent of it's top speed at 70 mph. which I'm guesing is a bit buzzy and dosen't leave much left to pass or get out of the way. I get what you are saying, I started sport riding on a GS500 and had some of the same thoughts but as evaluated the situation I came to the same conclusion that Kento stated it's about the bottom line which is understandable. I don't think all riders look down their nose at small bikes only the insecure ones. I ride a hayabusa now and would have no issue with riding a 250 around town they are fun and you get that feeling of the fist ride on your big wheel when you were a kid it just makes a guy smile. Have you seen the aprilia 125 maybe there is hope with them. Good Luck and Good Riding
There are worse things than death cowardice is one of them.
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Posted: 11/15/09 06:47 AM
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One of the things that all riders need to consider is whether a motorcycle "fits" in accordance with three categories.
1. Does is it fit you physically?
2. Does it fit your ability level?
3. Does it fit you psychologically?
The problem is too many people buy a bike based upon the third category and ignore or push the other two into the background when purchasing a motorcycle.
Individuals who have "grown up" so to speak ignore the perceived "lack of coolness" of a smaller displacement motorcycle and go ahead and get one just for the shear enjoyment of having one, and really don't care what others think.
The conspiracy is not from the manufacturers, it comes from our insecurity of having to "keep up with the Jones" or in this case "keeping up with the displacement" of other riders. Bigger is not always better, but it does have give bragging rights to the more insecure among us.
The manufacturers know this very well and market their bikes accordingly.
Ride Proud, Ride Safe, Have Fun
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kento1
Administrator
| Posts: 343
| Joined: 09/07
Posted: 11/15/09 09:56 AM
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xbacksideslider: For me, nothing would be cooler than a retro Ducati 250/350/450 Desmo, or better still, styled as a Diana MK III, wearing a 1098ish cylinder head.
You don't know how many times people have suggested this to Ducati, and they would easily have the means to make another modern Supermono that was street legal. Unfortunately, Claudio Domenicali has been frequently quoted as stating that while the bike would be "interesting technical exercise", it wouldn't sell enough to justify its cost to build. Too bad. The Supermono was a fantastic bike, the only production four-stroke that I thought approached my TZ250 in terms of handling.
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