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puzzled about veteran response
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CruisInR6
New User
| Posts: 5
| Joined: 04/06
Posted: 05/11/06
05:56 PM
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something bugs me about all the warnings you sport bike people give. Either all of your advice is aimed at
a) stupid people,
b) young people (below 20)
c) immature people (any age)
d) irresponsible people
e) all of the above
Because I have a serious problem with the way you handle potential new riders. It is one thing to advise caution, one thing to recommend certain things, training, experience, time, caution, whatever it is you recommend, but it is an entirely different thing to say. "if you get this, or get that YOU WILL CRASH BURN AND DIE"
I wonder how many people actually crashed and burned after reading that, no matter who it was said by, whether here or some other sport bike forum. Because they had it in the back of their mind.
Advising caution for a 600 as a first bike, extreme caution or other wise would be the way to go.
I have read that many of you are you tired of this and tired of that, and tired of the newbie "who has made up there mind" but is only seeking some justification for their choice. Who died and made you their guardian? Don't you think they got their families and friends advising them against this hell machine anyway?
Just like probably everyone of your friends did?
If you fully believe then a newbie has made up his mind, then why the bashing route? IF you really want to help and you know they are going to buy that bad 600 first bike anyway, why not caution them to stay off the road until they can handle the bike, tips on what to look for, exercises to practice to become or at least gain a little profiency with the bike. Throttle control, practice jumping the throttle in a controlled environment, see how it feels if it happens on the road.
Anyway... it seems to me sometimes as though the sport bike people are the defenders of the last great skill which many people don't have.... such as being a good sport bike rider, and want to keep it that way by scaring off newbies. Everyone drives a car, so that ain't special, you guys be telling yourselves if all these nitwits can go out and just buy a sport bike, our coolness factor is over!
Yeah I am real sure your heart bleeds and you spend many sleepless nights thinking about the poor newbie who crashed, get real.
We beginners are big adults who can make descisions like anyone else, the best thing you can do is give good advice on being safe.
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Posted: 05/11/06
06:54 PM
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Let me say first that I've had a sports bike(CBR 600 F4i) for only a week now. I've never owned a bike but I have a lot of experience riding bikes. I didn't ride a bike for like 1.5 yrs, before the MSF(2 weeks back) & yes I was crushed when everybody told me off on the sports bike. But i bought it nevertheless tellin myself, I have a wife, & I want to ride till I turn 70, not till I die...
Given that I now have a sports bike & what I saw today, I would tell what everybody else over here has been preaching.
I'll drive extremely cautiously, I'll be a sensible driver, & all that is shadowed by the fact that sports bikes are extremely sensitive to input. If I go over a small bump unexpectedly(read - I wasn't paying attention & didn't prepare myself) doin 70 mph & I get thrown around a bit, the throttle either rolls forward causing the bike to go faster or backward causing the engine to brake. Imagine what happens if there is a car in front or an suv is tailgating... Most sports bikes can reach 60 mph in a few seconds with a small twist of your wrist. Is there any reaction time left in case a newbie rolls the throttle all the way.
In the MSF, biking was made easy. -
Pull in the clutch - engage the gear - let go of the clutch easily - roll the throttle nice an easy.
On a Nighthawk, this routine could be harmless, easy & forgiving but on a sports bike before newbie knows it, he'll be goin way too faster than what he can handle, & if a car cuts into newbies path, newbie possibly ends up with "OH *** " braking or doesn't even have enuff reaction time. There is very little sensibility & maturity can do to help when eveythin happens just too fast in the beginning on a sports bike.
Motorcycles are mean if you don't know what to do with them. They need to be put on a well controlled leash. Control comes from experience & experience will only come from baby steps.
One of the newbies(mature, sensible, etc, etc) from my MSF kept on putting his feet down during the entire test part of it. He couldn't even swerve around the cones & yes he forgot to brake after the swerve to avoid another obstacle & yet he passed the MSF & he's gonna get a sports bike, Should he, I don't think so...
I saw a man with 2 kids & a wife almost KILL himself today riding his new bike. Read this - Biker Dude on 1000 RR
I'd love to see more bikes on the freeway in the morning, but seriously I don't want anybody to either endager themselves or anybody else out on the street
Just my thoughts...
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geof
User
| Posts: 95
| Joined: 09/05
Posted: 05/11/06
08:03 PM
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Voodoo... your post is a bit disjointed, I wasn't sure if you agreed or not...
To the original post... I agree with the typical you'll burn and die comment. It seems too many here hold to the old addage 'it's not if, but when'. This may be statistically true, but it assumes too much. It also gives NO credit to a new riders past experiences that may improve his/her capabilities on the bike. It also assumes one will just simply drop the bike out of nowhere, just cuz 'they did it'... I persoanlly have more faith. But, the world is a Jerry Springer show... often, brains are not included...
However, big bikes are a handful even for experienced riders, the advice to start small is good overall. Some of the race replica bikes are outrageous to ride... then again MOST sport bikes can be pretty outrageous in the big scheme of things...
Prudence, maturity, sense, and a willingness to go out and LEARN THE TRADE are key, no matter what the bike...
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 05/11/06
08:10 PM
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Quote:
Yeah I am real sure your heart bleeds and you spend many sleepless nights thinking about the poor newbie who crashed, get real.
We beginners are big adults who can make descisions like anyone else, the best thing you can do is give good advice on being safe.
Riding a motorcycle ain't rocket science. Most anyone can learn to ride and there certainly are more avenues to become a highly proficient rider than ever before. New rider training, trackdays, performance riding books. The desire to learn to ride well isn't any secret but it must start with the individual rider.
No, I don't stay up at night. But I do get annoyed when claims and injuries are jacking up my insurance rates. Especially since a large number of these claims and injuries are coming from folks who don't have the requisite motorcycle operation skills (yet) get on a high performance sportbike and subsequently end up in horizontal parking incidents.
New riders learning to operate a motorcycle have a significant challenge. Add traffic and the other hazards on public roads, it gets unforgiving. Add a motorcycle that demands a baseline level of riding proficiency, it can get downright hazardous.
It cuts both ways. The advice on starting on a more suitable entry level sportbike to make the learning curve shallower is bountiful on the Internet and most any resource on motorcycling and sportriding. It ain't advice some folks are after, its validation and that pat on the back attaboy approval. I'll wager this is what annoys we "sportbike people".
Bottom line, most veteran we "sportbike people" will say get training (MSF or equivalent), get gear, ride responsibly and start reasonably. I don't see many all that many dire and ominous warnings about crashing and burning on this bike or that.
Riding on public roadways is unforgiving. Decorum and manners is always desirable for interpersonal communication but sugarcoating things aren't. A "big adult" should be able to honestly and objectively evaluate his/her riding skill. And be able to maintain individual decision making while remaining open to advice.
Big adults are also prone to erroneous decision making. We "sportbike people" who have been riding more than a few years offer input on ways to reduce that error based on our varied experiences.... which may include many errors we have made in the past.
Safe and happy riding.
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Posted: 05/11/06
08:27 PM
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Quote:
Voodoo... your post is a bit disjointed, I wasn't sure if you agreed or not...
I guess I've had too many things happen to me in one day, lady tires to kill me, friend tries to kill us in his corvette, wind tries to throw me in another lane, biker dude tries to kill himself, I'm kinda overwhelmed.
Anyways my opinion is simple, if you're totally new to motrocycles i.e if your first ride was in the MSF, plz do not get a sport bike. If u wanna get a 600 or something I'd suggest a SV650, I rode it briefly & that bike rocks.
If you have experience riding bikes, sport bikes are a natural extension, just be wise in what u choose...
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casey
Enthusiast
| Posts: 470
| Joined: 09/05
Posted: 05/11/06
08:45 PM
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Well, you know what they say about opinions.....
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Toso
New User
| Posts: 1
| Joined: 05/06
Posted: 05/12/06
12:59 PM
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CruisInR6,
Its just an observation but you sound a bit like someone who didn't get the validation they wanted. You seem a bit hostile about it too. Why?
Its totally possible for a new rider to jump on a 600-1000cc bike and have absolutely no problems. Its just not the best way to go about doing it. When you first start riding you're thinking more about keeping the bike upright than you are anything around you. When something unexpected happens, you don't have any instincts to fall back on. The first time I rode a bike was in Japan. I had next to no experience. I was on a small road where you have to pull over to let opposing traffic go by. The car was there before I had time to think. I put my feet down to slow down and then swerved to the right (wrong side in Japan). The driver was paying attention and got away from me. Looking back that was just stupid, but then it started to make sense. I live in the U.S. I'm used to being on the right hand side. The brake thing was just pure fear. My instincts did what they were supposed to do. After having ridden for a while, my instincts are better. It takes time to develop those instincts and abilities. There were a lot of times where I made the mistake of grabbing the throttle while braking or grabbing the brake too hard. If I had been on a more responsive bike the outcome would have been different.
The other side of this is that I race cars from time to time. I let my ego talk me into starting with a fast car. Its really hurt my ability to become a better racer. Power is a crutch. It took me years in my car to learn what I could have gotten from a smaller car in months. Its no fun driving or riding something that you know you can't actually push. Sure everyone's eyes go wide when you pop the hood. I'll guarantee you that those some eyes are rolling in their heads when they fly by me at the track in cars that make half the power.
There's also the point that people who buy sport bikes and wad them up in a month are helping to drive insurance rates through the roof.
I've tried to talk someone out of a bike in the last month. And yes, I did have trouble sleeping because of it. This guys is a friend and I don't want to see anyone I care about get hurt because their ego wouldn't allow them to learn the basics on a bike more suited to their skill level.
We're not all here to keep people from joining our 'cool club'. We're trying to help you join it safely.
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Spyke
User
| Posts: 246
| Joined: 09/05
Posted: 05/12/06
03:03 PM
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Quote:
Because I have a serious problem with the way you handle potential new riders. It is one thing to advise caution, one thing to recommend certain things, training, experience, time, caution, whatever it is you recommend, but it is an entirely different thing to say. "if you get this, or get that YOU WILL CRASH BURN AND DIE"
First off the experienced riders on this forum aren't the guys asking eveyone what a good first bike would be.
Quote:
I have read that many of you are you tired of this and tired of that, and tired of the newbie "who has made up there mind" but is only seeking some justification for their choice. Who died and made you their guardian? Don't you think they got their families and friends advising them against this hell machine anyway?
I think we'd all agree that when a new rider asks for a more experienced opinion and we give him the best advice we can, and he doesn't listen to us, it's a bit irritating when they come back and 2 weeks later they're in the hospital. The guys on this site aren't trying to flame anyone, it's just we know how much seat time it takes to properly learn to ride a bike. I for one and pissed that my insurance goes up when some squid dies because he thought he was going to be the next Mladin on the streets. I don't know a guy on this site who wouldn't recommend the MSF course to a new rider but my theory is this: If a new rider is going to throw caution to the wind and not listen to someone wiser, then what is the point in teaching them tips and tricks to become a better rider when it's not going to matter on that shiney new bike they don't know how to handle in the first place.
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grickard
Enthusiast
| Posts: 324
| Joined: 02/05
Posted: 05/12/06
04:11 PM
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CursinR6, I don’t recall anyone telling you that you were going to die when you asked if the DT 175 would make a good first bike. But when someone asks if a gixxer 1k is a good first bike most of us get a little nervous. Also I’m disappointed that your local constabulary doesn’t offer some type of safety class. But get off my back!
Voodo, sounds like you had a day from hell, but you also survived it. Remember the bullet that missed you is not the one to worry about. And just think how much information and practical experience you now have that you didn’t this mourning. 
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CruisInR6
New User
| Posts: 5
| Joined: 04/06
Posted: 05/12/06
05:29 PM
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I was going to get a 600rr as my first bike. But I decided I'll play it safe and follow the advice of people here.
I may have come off a little annoyed in my first post, but I think my above comment shows I am sincere and genuine.
All that has ticked me off is seeing veterans telling a newbie they are a disaster on a sport bike. I'd like the verteran to put themslves in the shoes of the newbie and remember how it feels to get the bite. Some people and overcome that initial rush and be sensible, others can't, so instead of feeding fear into them outright.
do what i said, give them your caution, your advice without the death syndrome.
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brandonR6
Enthusiast
| Posts: 254
| Joined: 04/06
Posted: 05/12/06
11:02 PM
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I understand your initial frustration but at the same time you should try to understand ours. It's not all newbie's that are wanting to hop on a high end sport bike and tear ass all over the place. There are some that are very sensible about it and pay close attention to the warnings we give them. But on the other hand there are a select few that regardless of the advice of those who have ridden a while will go out drop 10k or more on a bike and make the statistics list. And then we all get pegged as dangerous and wreckless. They don't understand that this sport can be very dangerous and without taking the time to learn proper technique it will most likely turn around to bite them in the ass. It'd be like putting a brand new skier on a black diamond slope and not trying to warn them but wishing them the best of luck. There isn't a ski instructor alive that would advise that. Sure it comes off harsh sometimes but those of us that know just how powerful a sportbike is don't want to see anybody hurt. Though our presentation is a little unpolished we still have the best intentions for both the new rider and the sport in mind. That being said we can't stop you from getting the bike you want but we do want you to be careful and make a wise choice.
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casey
Enthusiast
| Posts: 470
| Joined: 09/05
Posted: 05/13/06
01:30 AM
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Quote:
Sure everyone's eyes go wide when you pop the hood. I'll guarantee you that those some eyes are rolling in their heads when they fly by me at the track in cars that make half the power.
Well said.
That is perhaps the truest, most profound statement I have ever read on this board.
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Sheerkhan
New User
| Posts: 1
| Joined: 03/08
Posted: 03/22/08
11:39 PM
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I think that most newbies have the thought that old heads are trying to keep them from having that new hyper bike. Because we don't want them to have any fun, and that if they get on them they will be able to handle the power and control this beast of a machine which they really can't. If the truth be told very very few people can actually ride a new bike 10/10ths and do it well, if so there would be more Ben Spies and Rossi's in the world. Just because you think you can Box does not that you can go 12 rounds with the champ. By starting out on a smaller bike you can learn soooo much more because things happen slower and you can understand what the bike is telling you. If you take two bikes with the same top speed and one will get to that top speed 10 seconds faster than the other it might not sound like much but that is a huge difference. And that's what I was trying to point out in my post about why are we trying to kill new riders? When you have a more powerful bike it makes more power everywhere and so much faster. Doubt that? Look up the stats on the new GSXR 1000 vs. the new Busa the GSXR 1000 makes huge power but the Busa makes more and gets in to the power band much quicker which explains why the GSXR get's smoked on every contest of power and speed. The difference between a 500 and a 1000 is like a Hammer and Nail vs. A Nail gun! They both do the same thing and that's put a nail in to wood but one does it so fast that you barely have a chance to ask what the heck just happend were the other you have time to understand that hey my finger is under the nail, I might want to move it before I strike it with the hammer. Same differnce with a 1000 you crack the throttle and it can thrill you with awesome displays of power or it can become a very expensive hat. Ask most folks who have been riding for awhile and they will tell you that the ride is the thing not so much the speed it's the freedom sure I love to go fast but not at the expense of my life, so I pick and choose my places to ride fast. But I plan to make track days more a part of my riding experince so that I can have that part of fun in a safe place without blue hairs turning in front of me while I'm running 120+ but how many newbies on a 600r or God forbid a 1000 anything can turn down the thrill of trying to max out on the city streets or interstate because someone else rolls up and blips the throttle? We all do it, it's called peer pressure and if you are riding something very powerful it's easy to say I'm just going to run in a straight line up to about 150-160 nothing is going to happen and it will be fun! Well due to lack of experince you don't know how to brake from those speeds and if anything should go wrong how will you handle it? My Dad always says it's easier to acclerate to a high speed than to brake from one, and that's really true. We caution newbies because we want you to ride with us for a long long time. Plus we understand that most new riders don't have money left over to purchase the needed riding gear. You just dropped $11,599 plus tax on that new ZX10r and barely had the dough to buy a helmet, and your friends tell you that a jacket is too hot and that high top sneakers are cool to ride in. Well it's not if you fall at high speed you'll be leaving a skin mark on the ground your shoes will remove themselves and your feet are going to be jacked. Now if telling someone the truth that road rash hurts and that it will change your mind about riding then so be it.
We all want what we want be like the man said, learn to ride well, the bike you want today will still be there and if you don't want to ride anymore you will not have paid a whole lot for a bike that you no longer want.
That's my 5 cents, take it or leave it but if you want to get really good go and look at the greats of road racing and find out what they started on 125cc's or 1000's? Then ask yourself and be honest are you really better than the Doctor? Are you better than Casey Stoner? The Doctor 6 time world champion....You just starting and looking to get your license, and asking which bike should I get.
Keep the shiny side up, Stay up Stay Strong and Stay black
Peace love and Afro grease
Sheerkhan
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Posted: 03/25/08
02:26 PM
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hmm...reminds me of my days in Driver's Ed...when they showed those shock video's of crash victims...On some people that stuff works...some it doesn't...
but here's the difference..if you ask for advice on what bike to buy...and you ignore that advice...don't expect people to applaud your decision...matter of fact I would expect the opposite...
I'm one of those who listened...took the MSF course and got me a brand new Ninja Ex-500...yeah it doesn't look as cool as the new bigger sport bikes...but you know...that's fine with me...Maybe later we'll see if we want to upgrade to a bigger bike when I feel like I've learned how to properly ride a bike...
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Posted: 03/27/08
11:36 AM
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Here is some advice:
a few things:
Sport bikes rock and are far easier to ride than cruisers. They don't have crappy handle bars and heavy components. I would advise everyone to start on a sport bike.
Cry me a river about crashing. It happens...people get it...motorcycles are dangerous...that is why they are so cool.
No one is listening anyway when it comes to bikes, so let them rip the throttle on a 1000 and figure it out for themselves. I need salvaged bikes for the track anyway.
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