fuel/octane

I mix what was called MS103 from VP  50/50 with 91 pump gas and it gives me somewhere around 96 to 97 octane. I haven't done anything much more exotic than that except for maybe an upper cylinder lubricant added to that mix here and there. I know VP and some others have quite a selection so i'm just curious what other people have tried. Because if you havent heard the news 91 pump gas is caca/junk. Thanks in advance for any feedback  

Have you done anything to your motor?  Higher compression?  Cams?  I don't see the need for spending the extra money on race gas.  A close to stock engine won't be able to get any benifit from it....  I don't think....  I'd like to see a dyno of your bike with pump gas and one with the mix.

I generally use 92 or 93 octane from Shell or Mobil or Amaco in my 10R.  Works fine.  My 10R requires 90 or higher, and by me they sell 87, 89 and 92/93....


Chris  

Yes i have done alittle to the head such as the FIM camshafts from kawi. And as far as i know they only change the duration. Never the less even in a bone stock motorcycle your engine is considered high compression. And if your using only pump 91 you have mayjor pre ignition what is called SPARK KNOCK and your pistons are being banged around in the cylinders like pinballs. Also stated in most owners manuals. For example if you called kawasaki and not a dealership the sells kawasaki but kawasaki it's self and asked what type of gas i need to use for my bike not to ping. I would put money on them telling you that you need to use 96 octane not 91-93. and your correct in that i have actually seen the data sheets from the guys that drop the gas in my local stations and sometimes it is as high as 93 but sold as 91.It's not like the dealerships are going to stop selling motorcycles and cars because you cant buy the gas they were designed to run on.I'm sure your bike runs fine on 91 but i ride for sport and fun and not transportation.And honestly i would not be surprised if you gained a horse or two or even more on the dyno. The air fuel mixture is designed to be ignited from the top and have a consistant burn all the way through. With 91 at any given time during operation of your engine your having as many as 3 or 4 flame fronts fighting against themselfs and not pushing the piston down giving power. Example- I would bet dollars to dogs--t that if you could change the placement of your spark plup to a 35 or 40 degree like most standard cars instead of being straight up like a hemi motor or your bike you will have a huge decrease in power. Not to mention depending on what quality fuel you use it will drop your internal engine temp by 10 to 30 degrees. If you dont think that alone gives you more power i dont have an answer for you. Most people think that when you use high octane fuel your going to burn your motor up..and that is completely false the truth is you will run it cooler. the only negative the comes from to high of octane rating and i'm talking way high atleast 105 plus in a fourstroke is you can get valve recession. Simply being that the fuel mix burns just way to slow and is still burning when you piston comes up on the exhaust stroke and thats not good. But 100 ocatne or less doesn't come anywhere near doing that. And another thing that some people think is that you can use octane booster in a can which is a myth. And if you mix your own gas it takes something like 8 to 12 hours for it to actually combine and become a diff grade of fuel. So when you go to a gas station where they have mixers for the midgrade your using the worst combo out there. some cylinders are getting 87 and some are getting 89. And the trend seems to be there all starting to do that atleast in my area. But dont get me wrong i also use 91 pump when i dont have the good stuff myself. The good stuff is 5 to 8 dollars a gallon now. The 10R is a sick bike and is said to be the quickest out there right now. The negative i have heard on it was when it first came out they had issues with the shift lever sticking in the up position and not returning to the neutral position after upshifting but they say it's all worked out now. Thanks in advance for any feedback...  

The measurment of a gasoline to resist KNOCK..PING..PRE IGNITION... is octane. Another fact is that all new modern cars have something called a knock sensor. The knock sensor retards the timming of the entire engine so that it doesn't completely shake itself apart. And when it comes down to mass producing cars and bikes I dont think the knock sensor is on there to ease or minds. It's on there because it's needed. When in today's modern market these companies are in the market of removing nuts and bolts to save on cost. I have yet to find someone to tell me that cars have higher compression then sportbikes. As of right now TOYOTA RACING DEVELOPMENT is having major problems with there superchargers and pre ignition to the extent the people are having them installed and them removed because they are in fear of having major engine damage.. research it ? Before all these new gas laws went into affect ARCO was the first to invent crap gas. When you buy a BMW atleast in my area the dealership will tell you not to use arco gas. Why is arco am pm gas alway's cheaper than the rest?...because it takes money to refine and if you have ever seen the inside of a cylinder after 300 or 400 gallons of arco gas you will know what i'm talking about. I just read another post where people were saying that 87 and 89 octane was ok for your bike. thats insane...but hey what ever floats your boat.To those people i ask..(if i wear riding spirs and jab them into my swingarm as i ride will i go faster ?)But than again most people dont put that many miles on there bikes and if thats the case you will never no the difference. Thanks in advance for any feedback.  

I have always used 87 octane in every bike I have ever owned. My GSXR manual calls for 87+.
I have NEVER had a probem related to detonation.
Is you bike used at the track or street.
If you bike is indeed modified to take advantage of higher octane. You could never fully exploit this on the street.
In fact, my friend has an 05 R6. He tried some race fuel, thinking it would make him faster. In fact, the bike ran worse. Most premium gasolines (92-93 octanes)are full of detergents. When the additives burn, the turn into carbon. Carbon buildup can keep valves from seating correctly.
Why spend the extra money?  

I haven't read your owners manual. But what that means is if you use anything less than 87 octane it will result in severe egine damage. when the maufacturer developes a motor they knock test it. Meaning they start out with poor quality fuel and slowly increase the octane until the knock comes into exceptable limits. Do you know what type of fuel you friend used that gave a decrease in performance? The only ill affects i have ever seen from using a performance unleaded is valve recession and just way to high of an octane rating. My prefered mix a 50/50 mix of 91 premium and 103 performance unleaded with an upper cylinder lube of your choice. The things i have noticed from this right off that bat are...it eliminated the slight 100 to 200 rpm variation from my idle making it dead solid like a swiss clock....smoother crisper throttle response.....a deeper richer exhaust note....on just premiun pump gas sitting at a light my temps will reach anywhere from 212-218 and stated from the manufacturer 229 is the danger point. When i use my mix no matter how long i sit at a light or how hard i pound on the bike it almost never will exceed 200. And running temps with air flow are much lower than that. The number one killer of any engine is heat and friction. I have a couple bikes but the one i ride most often is a 2003 kawi 636.Almost everytime i ride it i hit the shift light which is what somewhere around 15000 rpm. And on any given day i have no problems hitting that shift light in first..second...third...and sometimes fourth gear if i'm really pounding on it track or street. But i also weigh over 200 pounds so i dont know if i would be doing that if i only weighed a buck 35. I ride sportbikes more for hobby than transportaion so i am a little picky about it but i wouldn't run 87 in my (FORD) Found On Road Dead truck. If 87 works then stick with what works for you. Ride safe and thanks in advance for any feedback.  

Another thing to understand. You said you mix 50/50 with 91 octane. You do realize there are 2 types of gas that the truck actually delivers to the tanks at the station. You have premium 92-93 octane and regular 87 octane. 89-91 is mixed at the pump. So where you know it or not, you are putting in 87. It is just mixed with 93 at the pump. And yes I do know a little about the way manufacturers test engines. I built prototype fuel injection machinary for Seimens Automotive in Newport News Va. and Pisa Italy to develope the Deka 4-5 injector. Also with Bosche Corp. in Anderson SC. I worked closely with both in real time engine testing. This included fuel testing. What I was simply trying to state is. Unless you are racing or running a modified engine. What you are doing is most likely overkill. As you stated. As much as your engine is not designed to run an octane of under 87. It is also not desinged to running at ratings above 93. And as I said before I have never in 25 years had any kind of failure due to detonation or a heat issue related to octane. Each of the 11 bikes I have owned have had excess 50000 miles each. And believe me, I ride as hard as anyone out there.  

well considering that 91 octane is approximately twenty cents more expensive than 87 octane and the fact that most of our tanks are slightly over three maybe four gallons, i'll pay the extra sixty to eighty cents extra each fill up. hell, i buy four dollar cups of coffee at starbucks the least i can do is fill my other better half (my bike)up with the good stuff. just my opinion.  

+1 Toad Dangerously.

SV has over a dozen trackdays and over 35K miles. Never run on anything except 87 pump. Whether it's commuting in late March at 40F or at Road America's long arsed front straight during a track school in July at 90F .

Use whatever makes you feel good but as far as performance goes, it's a waste of money to run anything other than pump octanes unless you have a fairly heavily massaged engine and/or competing.  

Yes i think i stated that in an earlier post. I am not using  87 and i know it. The mixed gas around me is midgrade. In my area up until a year ago all three grades of gas were dropped seperate. But know they only drop no lead 87 which is straight unleaded and premium 91 which is pure 91 and the mixers mix the 91 and the 87 to get the 89 midgrade.And i dont remember the exact amount of time but it takes something like 8 to 12 hours for two grades of fuel to mix and become a diff grade of gas. A smoother motor is a faster stronger motor. In the world engine building there's something called blueprinting. One main area of concentration  when blueprinting a motor is to rebore the cylinder so that it is dead square to the piston.... some people go as far as putting gold rings on there pistons for a perfect seal... but true they dont last nearly as long and you will be pulling your engine apart all the time. If you called Suzuki and asked them what grade of fuel i need to use so my bike doesn't ping they will say something like 96 or 97 try em ? Your owners manual most likey say's to shop around at diff stations if your having an issuse in search of better gas. Also in your manual under fuel you will also see an equation of motor octane and research octane and how to calculate it to find the octane rating on which your engine was designed to run on. It's not 87 and it's not 93. I have personaly seen twostroke engines go from 13HP stock to 19HP blueprinted. Plain and simple these race engines on these supersport and superbikes are not that far from  the engines in a retail bike. And they surely do not use 87 or 91 it's much higher.I think you said you have gsxr and if so and your using 87 octane even if you dont hear it your pining all over the place and your pistons dont make any power going sideways. Let alone the abuse on your rist pins and rod bearings.Even if you dont have any overheating problems if you reduce heat and friction your engine parts will last longer period. Another gas fact is that you will get more gas for your money if you fill up at night or in cooler temps...not alot but it is more. Im not trying to attack anyone i'm just stating my opinion and thats all it is ...is an opinion. Is taking the effort and money to buy good gas worth it well thats a matter of personal choice. Ok my fingers are tired. thanks in advance for any imput.  

Seems to be some confusion about research, motor and pump octane numbers.

http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/octane.htm

FIM regulations for MotoGP and WSB require use of unleaded fuel with a maximum pump octane of 96 (R+M/2).

Section 2.10.2
http://www.fim.ch/EN/rules/Sportifs/ccrGP/2006/ROAD%20RACING%20GP_tech_en.pdf

Somehow, I don't think a street GSX-R has more built up motor than a RC211V, -M1 or GSV-R, much less a WSB-spec version of a GSX-R.  

last time i was looking i think there are 2 methods of measuring octain in gas.  ron and mon...  i think that if you're pumping 96mon its the equivelent of 91ron or vice versa.  
we had this argument over on the cbr forums.  a guy siad that because i spent the extra on the highest octane availible at the pump that the only reason i went fast was becuase of of less money being in my wallet.  everyone has their own opinion.  i run the highest availible at the pump which i think is 93.  

due to the compression on my bike i have to run 90 plus.  but i'd run it anyway even if i didn't  

The octane number you see at the majority of US pumps is commonly known as Pump Octane or Anti Knock Index, which is the average of the Research Octane (RON) and Motor Octane (MON). (R+M)/2 In the US, the highest "grade" of fuel is typically 93 or 94. European gas, er... petrol, stations almost always give their fuels in RON.

Octane numbers are obtained by testing the fuel by combusting it in a special "knock" engine. RON is measured under "low severity" engine operation while MON is measured under "high severity" condition. Thus, with rare exception, MON is always lower than RON.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating  

Hey, you ask for feedback in the original post. If you already know the answer.....Why bother asking the question. I gave you feedback based on my experience. If you want to take my advice. Take it. If not, Dont. Any of the engines I have rebuilt have had no damage to heat or detonation.  running on 87. This would include checking the bore for piston slap. My current bike was dynod last spring at 109 HP. Pretty much top of the HP Chart for a stock 600. Hence; my pistons are not moving sideways.  If I am losing a HP or 2, who cares. I know few people who could actually take full advantage of 109 HP on the street. If my engine is running 205 degrees instead 201, I dont think I am going to suffer a castostophic failure. The point is this. If you are not racing or running a modified engine you do not need 98+ race fuel. If you want to burn 91 fine. But, do to common sense nd experience with engine manufactures. I just choose not to. And believe me if you want to talk blueprinting 2-strokes, I will be glad to. That is where most of my engine/race experience lies. Now I have to go. It is 2 in the morning and cool out. I have to go fill up and save .00000000000001 cents.