Knee Scrape

Alright, I know you guys are going to gripe at me because i am a fairly new rider but I would like to know your advice on a sweet lean----a.k.a Knee Scraper. Where should my feet be on the pegs? My upper body,position on the seat etc. I actually live at the base of the dragon and would like to not bust it the first time I try a hard lean. The bike is an 02' R6 and so far I really like it.
Thanks,
Cody a.k.a Rebounder  

Getting a knee on the ground is not something you go out on a public road with the attempt of making it happen. It's something that just comes with time and experience. It will happen on it's own, it's something you need to work up to without help...not to mention it should be reserved for the track anyway.

Not to sound cliche, but if you don't know, you're not ready.

No offense.  

To tell you the truth, "thinking" about scraping your knee will cause more problems than if you end up doing naturally. By "naturally", I mean being in the right body position after taking a track school with some professional instruction.  If you try "too hard" to scrape your knee in a turn-- especially on public roads, with as little riding experience as yourself-- chances are high that you will end up wobbling off line and end up in the bushes, or worse-- into the oncoming lane.

I know this sounds like the usual "listen to me, son" lecture, but I'm telling you the truth from years of experience watching new riders who actually scrape their knee for the first time on the track. Some are trying so hard to do it for the first time that they end up way off line on the exit of the turn, because they're thinking about scraping knee more than where they're going. Trust me on this.

Now comes the lecture: I don't recommend scraping your knee on public roads, because with the lean angle and commitment to the turn necessary to do this, you're leaving no room for error-- both on your part and others coming the other way. Sure, it looks cool and macho to be walking around with worn knee sliders at your favorite bike hangout, but in reality, you're rolling the dice every time. And sooner or later, you're going to come up snake eyes. Case in point: just the other day at one of more popular canyon roads in SoCal, a rider was running down the road at his usual scraping knee clip, when he came upon stopped traffic around a bend. He couldn't get slowed in time, and ended up glancing off a stopped car and flying into the other lane-- right head-on into an ambulance coming the other way (the reason the cars were stopping), killing him instantly. Just a thought to keep in mind when you're "scraping knee" on the street...  

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head-on into an ambulance coming the other way  

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Learn how to stop and learn how to steer.The rest of it isn't nearly as important.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, Wheelspin, but isn't the whole 'knee on the ground' thing simply a gauge that racers use to determine thier lean angle? Not for looks at all, but to let you know exactly what angle you are at, so that you may snap the bike over to that angle as quickly as possible, and KNOW that you are not going to drag anything or lose traction? Isn't that why racers do that?

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And since there is no need to snap your bike over like that when you aren't on the track, should you ever need to drag a knee on the street? Would being able to utilize that particular 'tool' ever benefit a street rider?

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The knee scrape is actually NOT a goal to strive for. Your knee is not a cornering sidestand. If you watch most pro racers the knee is seldom on the ground. Maybe a slight touch, but hardly dragging on the ground. If anything, it may tap and the rider will actually LIFT the knee off the ground.

As wheelspin says, there are MANY more things to learn than the knee hitting the pavement, and frankly if you are that concerned with that one tiny aspect of riding, more than your knee will be hitting the ground a lot sooner.

Having just had an advanced track/riding course I can tell you it is a MUST if you even think about cornering with any real skill. Not something that gets learned by attrition, or self teaching, or advice an a forum. Not only that, what you learn on a track will make you a better street rider no doubt, but what is done on the track is FAR outside of what you do on the street. If you are trying to run at the limit on the steet, it is only a matter of time when the limit runs out... Not a good thing.  

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It's mostly just a consequence of racers trying to get as much of their weight inside the bike's turning arc, although the top racers use their knees to help correct a front-end slide in extreme instances.

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Um, sorry, but that statement is totally wrong. There's a helluva lot more to riding than just learning how to "stop" and "steer" that's just as important, if not more...

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Allow me to iterject my own answer to that question. It's not that there are things that are neccessarily more important, but there are things that are equally important. Such as scanning, safe passing, staying out of blindspots, slow speed menuevering, smooth throttle control, looking through corners, not target fixating...etc.  

Thank you, Bill. I respect your opinion (as I do Wheelspin's) and I agree with the things that you just mentioned.
BUT scanning, looking through corners, not target fixating...those things are all a part of STEERING (you go where you look, you look where you want to go, right?) as are bar input (you steer at the bars), smooth throttle control (you steer with the throttle), braking before a corner, trail braking (you steer with the brakes), body position, leg input, weighting the footpegs (you steer with your body).....that is all entailed in learning how to steer your bike. Learning how to steer your bike is very important, I think. Do you disagree with anything that I just said?
Safe passing, staying out of blindspots, slow speed maneuvering, I agree are all crucial skills to have. However if you are trying to tell me that any of those things is on the same level of importance as BRAKING and STEERING, I will have to disagree with you. Being able to stop your bike, without losing the front end...without locking the rear... IS PARAMOUNT.
Being able to brake and steer is what will keep you alive.

I was told by Wheelspin that I was wrong when I said this,

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Um, sorry, but that statement is totally wrong. There's a helluva lot more to riding than just learning how to "stop" and "steer" that's just as important, if not more...

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I'm very curious to know what it is exactly that you think a "fairly new rider" (in his own words) like Cody needs to know more than being able to STOP his bike, quickly and under control, and how to STEER his bike.

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BUT scanning, looking through corners, not target fixating...those things are all a part of STEERING (you go where you look, you look where you want to go, right?) as are bar input (you steer at the bars), smooth throttle control (you steer with the throttle), braking before a corner, trail braking (you steer with the brakes), body position, leg input, weighting the footpegs (you steer with your body).....that is all entailed in learning how to steer your bike. Learning how to steer your bike is very important, I think. Do you disagree with anything that I just said?
Safe passing, staying out of blindspots, slow speed maneuvering, I agree are all crucial skills to have. However if you are trying to tell me that any of those things is on the same level of importance as BRAKING and STEERING, I will have to disagree with you. Being able to stop your bike, without losing the front end...without locking the rear... IS PARAMOUNT.
Being able to brake and steer is what will keep you alive.

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Look, we can sit here and discuss semantics and context all day long . The reason I said that your statement is wrong is because you're generalizing a very difficult and complex skill.  Simply saying "learn how to stop and steer, the rest isn't nearly as important" is like saying "learn how to fly by steering and throttle-- the rest isn't nearly as important." Yeah sure, you can break down context and say that learning proper use of the rudder, flaps, etc., is part of "steering", but it's obviously a lot more complex than that. If you're talking about telling a newbie something, would you just say that phrase to a person learning how to fly and leave it at that?

If you don't learn how to manage and maintain your concentration, if you don't learn how to properly gauge and manage your speed, if you don't learn how to use and control the throttle (to get you out of trouble or otherwise), if you don't learn to use your controls together smoothly, if you don't learn to be cognizant of where you are in a street traffic situation and always look for escape routes, check your mirrors, etc. etc. etc.-- learning how to just "stop and steer" really won't do you a lot of good. And "mastering how to brake"-- there's a lot of expert riders who can't say that. Braking is one of hardest tasks to learn for a newbie-- they'll never "master" it.

To keep this thread from being another rambling back-and-forth context dissection, I'll recant and say that your statement wasn't "totally" wrong-- just wrong in the way you stated it, especially if you're referring to "giving a newbie advice." If you're going to generalize, then just saying "learn how to ride properly by getting professional instruction" is right.  

Thanks for the advice ............I think you guys are right I sould build my skills first and let things occur naturally. I dont want to jump the gun and wreck. A couple of other questions came to mind yesterday.
1) What is a good helmet that wont cost me to much? I have an HJC now and I hate it........not enough airflow and fogs up unless I keep it cracked and then it that slams shut at 60 mph.
2) It would seem as though my bike leans a tad to the left ...is it the way I ride or is some kind of alignment out of wack?
3) When the gas light comes on how many miles do I have left?
4) The bike has Vance and Hines exhaust but where the pipes connect the is some exhaust escaping through a small slit ....a friend told me it was a moisture drain but it seems to be alot of air and it gets brown crap on the frame. What is the deal?
Thanks a bunch,
Cody  

Casey, Wheelspin has already said what I was going to say, but I had to go to stupid meeting

But basically this is what I was going to say. Just using the term "steering" is overly simplistic. See I told you he already said what I was going to say

As for what is "more" important than steering and braking. If we use the scenerio wheelspin used and you referenced, not putting himself in that position in the first place and not leaving any flexibility to react, is much more important than trying to frantically brake and steer to avoid the inevitable, and foolish life threatening situation.  

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1) What is a good helmet that wont cost me to much? I have an HJC now and I hate it........not enough airflow and fogs up unless I keep it cracked and then it that slams shut at 60 mph.

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2) It would seem as though my bike leans a tad to the left ...is it the way I ride or is some kind of alignment out of wack?

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 3) When the gas light comes on how many miles do I have left?

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4) The bike has Vance and Hines exhaust but where the pipes connect the is some exhaust escaping through a small slit ....a friend told me it was a moisture drain but it seems to be alot of air and it gets brown crap on the frame. What is the deal?
Thanks a bunch,
Cody

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