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Is more power better?
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Posted: 09/01/05
09:36 AM
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I dont ride twins so i was kinda pulling the rpm numbers out my ass. but yea i know there raced. its just when you think of twins you think of usable horse power and torque. and you think of how its not geared tall as hell. ive always thought of them as real world bikes. because they put the power out when you need it. and you dont need to wind it like hell to get some decent torque. which i guess why alot of people street litre bikes rather than 600s. in my eyes though the only place twins performance really come to mind is the drag strip where of course torque is king. but there are always exceptions. like the tlr and rc51, tuono, ducati, etc.
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 09/01/05
09:57 AM
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in my eyes though the only place twins performance really come to mind is the drag strip where of course torque is king. but there are always exceptions. like the tlr and rc51, tuono, ducati, etc.
I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly but... a GSX-R1000, -R1 or ZX-10R would eat all of these for lunch at the drag strip, given equal riders.
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Posted: 09/01/05
11:48 AM
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yea a litre bike will kill most twins at the strip. but a decent built twin has pretty good torque. especialy where you need it at the strip. im not saying twins are the best for the strip. just that in my opinion thats the only place in racing that they fit. (when it comes to harleys and those other companies that only make cruisers.) this is a stereotype but it was true till recently, that twins arent handlers. and that was mostly cause twins were only used in cruisers which arent exactly built for handling. thats changed now. im just saying when i think twin i think real world performance. (commuting and street riding) which is why i like the buel. the firebolt is nice to ride. and handles the stop and go low speed [censored] easy.
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Posted: 09/01/05
04:49 PM
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Good lord. The original post was about a detuned R6 for more midrange. When did this turn into a pissing contest on which is better a V-Twin or Inline-4. Everybody likes different bikes for different reasons. Just leave it at that. This like what is better "chicken or chicken?"
Actually this isn't a pissing contest. And I don't think that I implied that 4s were better than twins. They are both worthwhile power plants with different strengths and weaknesses. The thing that got me, was the mis-information about a Buell having better/quicker real world performance than a liter bike. It doesn't and I said so. If you don't believe me, go and demo a Buell XB12. Your R1 will trounce it in all situations, unless you keep your R1s revs below 3k rpm. The only time I am using that few rpms is in school zones and some residential areas where the speed limit is 20 mph. TEvo had the best explanation or whatever when he wrote Quote:
Than a contemporary 1000cc inline four? No. Torque from an 1000cc four like the GSX-R1000 or ZX-10R is equal to if not superior to a v-twin.
Better is subjective. V-twins do feel different in how they put power to pavement. For most, they do engender a sense of being more tractable than an inline-four but it's one of those things that you either like, don't like or don't care one way or another because they all have 2 wheels.
wheelspin posted some numbers (that can be found in all the magazines) showing that the liter bike kill the XB12 in top gear rollons confirming TEvo's initial statement. mcrides posted some stuff.... I posted my own experiences/observations on my ZX-10. And then bleedgreen posted some nonsense that I tore apart.  That about sums it up. I did try to get back on topic at the end of it...
I still say that the detuned R6 wasn't worth the effort that was put into it. Lets see the dyno charts. Unless you can show a bump in bottom and mid-range power, I have to agree with wheelspin that the acceleration numbers are due to the gearing. Change the gearing on a stock R6 to match the detuned bike, and use a power comander to tweak the FI of the stock bike. Even stock bikes can use a little FI work now a days, since they are set up to meet noise and emissions standards. Then rerun the test.
For smaller displacement bikes, a twin is probably better since it'll have more omph down low where a mutli needs to spin up. But for an open class bike it doesn't matter. Twin, triple, 4, you have power everywhere.
Chris
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enp83
Enthusiast
| Posts: 361
| Joined: 02/05
Posted: 09/01/05
06:48 PM
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Strangely enough, to me, buying a Buell is like purchasing that "full-size pickup". It's got the same raw mechanical styling and sense, and it's fun to ride in for a short period of time. But there's too many compromises when it comes to carving corners.
Might want to head to your local news stand and check out a couple of recent magazines that have done large multiple bike handling tests...
Including this one that's online from Performance Bikes magazine...
"We tested and datelog everything from a ZX10R and a Buell to a 749 and a supermoto to bring you the low down on what machine slices round corners the quickest." (includes a GSXR600 and ZXR400 too)
"We've tried to make this as far a test as possible. All the bikes were run at the same time in the same conditions, and all on Pirelli's superb Diabloe Corsa tyres. They were all under the watchful eye of spot-bollock datalogger, piloted by three riders of varying ability. We've also used date from three different bends."
<snippets below>
Why is it (Buell) here? ...steering geometry is pretty much what you'd find on a 250GP bike
The Firebolt carries less speed into and out of the turn, but it's apex speed is at least 2 mph up on the Suzuki.
The Buell feels particularly good through the Complex, the fairly high close bars letting you throw it in hard, and it's so secure over on it's ear, even with the pegs touching down.
"It's surprising, that buell," agrees a smiling Gus after a 20 minute session. "It's short and goes where you want it to." It hold a tight line as well, and the bottom-end grunt of the Harley lets it pull third and fire out of the hairpin on a wave of torque."
"<Mark's Moanings>...the bike I felt best on leant over was the Buell. It wasn't the quickest steering, but once in a bend the firebolt felt super stable."
"<second corner/Tower Bend>...all three testers are faster on the Kawasaki than the Suzuki, putting the 10R second behind the Buell in everyone's case."
"The super stable Firebolt got all three riders through Tower quicker than any other bike."
"The Firebolt is absolutely flying, just touching down the tip of the hero blob. Mark says: "It's just so stable leaning over. It doesn't drop in as easily as the big ZX but once it's over it gives me so much confidence, and you know if it hits a bump or something you're not going to get knocked off line."
"The itsy-bitsy Buell with it's bonkers GP geometry is fastest round here <Tower Bend, second corner in test>"
"<Mike's mumblings> The diminutive Firebolt would be my choice on a super-twisty track."
"<Gus's groans>The Buell is solid at full tilt"
"If you want a bike to get you round corners quickest, our figures confirm that the Buell is the one you want."
"So here's the deal: if you want the scientifically mesasured quickest bike through corners take the Firebolt."
So these compromises when it comes to carving corners definately wouldn't be instability, lack of confidence or being too slow around corners....
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 09/02/05
07:18 PM
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Might want to head to your local news stand and check out a couple of recent magazines that have done large multiple bike handling tests...
Including this one that's online from Performance Bikes magazine...
So these compromises when it comes to carving corners definately wouldn't be instability, lack of confidence or being too slow around corners....
But they would be inferior brakes, a narrow powerband, lack of top-end pull, poor front-end feedback, and a limited performance potential.
Yep, I saw that article when it came out (a couple of months ago). It was definitely an interesting test, and a good read. However-- again, I don't have this hate thing for Buells, and I hate to keep counterpointing your posts, but:
1. Superior corner speed through a few slow 25-30mph apex corners does not an ultimate sportbike make. If it did, then you'd see the Buell Firebolts cleaning up in any racing class they entered. (and hell, I'd be first in line at the dealership...)
2. If the only roads I rode were extremely tight and twisty that never got out of second gear, then I probably would at least consider the Buell-- but the numerous roads (and tracks) I ride aren't limited to just that type.
3. There's plenty of other bikes that I would've like to see in that test, but they weren't included. I would've liked to see an R6, maybe even an R1 and an SV650; and if we're looking at older bikes no longer in production, maybe an Aprilia RS250, and some of the numerous 250 two-strokes that were made by the big Four. Still, an impressive showing by the Buell Firebolt, and as far as apex speeds go, the numbers don't lie.
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spenc954
New User
| Posts: 30
| Joined: 01/05
Posted: 09/03/05
12:34 AM
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I still say that the detuned R6 wasn't worth the effort that was put into it. Lets see the dyno charts. Unless you can show a bump in bottom and mid-range power, I have to agree with wheelspin that the acceleration numbers are due to the gearing. Change the gearing on a stock R6 to match the detuned bike, and use a power comander to tweak the FI of the stock bike. Even stock bikes can use a little FI work now a days, since they are set up to meet noise and emissions standards. Then rerun the test.
Here is the dyno from the magazine. Unfortunately I don’t have a scanner and had to improvise with my digital camera.
In the article (BIKE Magazine, a British publication) the writers said
” What we get is staggering: peak torque is lower- and peak power, too. And the modified R6 makes more where it counts- at 8000 rpm the new motor makes 13.4 per cent more power and 14.8 per cent more torque than the stock bike. .”
When I originally posted this, I was thinking more along the lines of the manufacturers developing a sportbike (sex appeal) with these characteristics for the daily commuter.
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Posted: 09/03/05
07:56 AM
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Nice red X. 
Accutally, I cut and pasted the URL of the red x and saw the dyno chart. It does look like they made the R6 more streetable. There is a pretty good gap between the hp and torque curves for both R6's. I think it is funny that they included an FZR600 on the graph (a bike that isn't made any more) instead of the YZF600R. I am sold on the idea. It certainly looks like a promissing idea for a smaller displacement bike. I'd still like to see them regear the stock R6 though and redo the performance numbers and the comparison.... Gearing can have a pretty big effect. I wonder how the detuned bikes would sell, and would there be any price difference given that they look the same? A number of people complain about having a detuned R1 motor in the FZ1...
Kawasaki is in a way already doing something like this. They offer the ZX-6RR which doesn't seem too practicle on the street with it's low gearing and 16,500 rpm red line. The ZX-6R has a few more cc and looks to be geared better. And then there is also the ZZR600 which should have a slight street advantage over the newer racier bikes. And Yamaha looks to be doing something similar in '06 with its new R6 (17,500 rpm!!), R6S (which is the current R6), and the YZF600R.
Maybe the dyno chart will change some oppinions like it did me. 
Chris
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enp83
Enthusiast
| Posts: 361
| Joined: 02/05
Posted: 09/06/05
11:09 PM
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Wheelspin, the mag I refered to but didn't have the name of was the August of BIKE (I'm told it was August). It was still at Boarders tonight anyway, so maybe its sept/oct issue I dont know....but on the cover it talks about a list of the 50 best cornering bikes. RS125 was 2nd and numero uno on their list was the Buell Firebolt. And they said it had great feedback from the front forks. Too many compramises when it comes to carving corners, I think not. Too many compramises when it comes to racing against motorcycles outside it's class with liquid cooled motors or high revving DOHC I4s, thats something completely different (like trying to race a RS125 against a 600, completely different classes). A lot of people who race XBs keep the "inferior brakes" and racings not cheap so it's not like they don't have the money to upgrade or anything. Theres also been a couple world stoppie records set with these "inferior brakes." Narrow powerband, not really. It's got great torque downlow and the power builds all the way to redline (lack of top end pull, it continues to gain power all the way up to its redline, its a v-twin you're not gonna get a peaky I4 punch...not like that has anything to do with it's ability to "carve corners" anyway)...put it in a gear and twist the throttle. One of the things BIKE magazine specifically said about the XB12R is that it was nice that you didn't have downshift all the time to get good drive out of the corners.
Please spare us the typical buell bashing and the bs about the XB having compromises when it comes to carving corners since multiple mainstream bike magazines have listed it as one of the best cornering bikes out there.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 09/06/05
11:30 PM
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And they said it had great feedback from the front forks.
Hey, maybe "they" said, but I didn't. And that's not how the bike felt to me. And that's all I was stating.
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Too many compramises when it comes to carving corners, I think not. Too many compramises when it comes to racing against motorcycles outside it's class with liquid cooled motors or high revving DOHC I4s, thats something completely different (like trying to race a RS125 against a 600, completely different classes).
That's what I mean by "making excuses". This whole thing was started by saying the Buell will outaccelerate a literbike...remember?
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A lot of people who race XBs keep the "inferior brakes" and racings not cheap so it's not like they don't have the money to upgrade or anything. Theres also been a couple world stoppie records set with these "inferior brakes."
I can't speak for those who race the XBs with the rim-brake. And what do stoppies have to do with "carving corners"?
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Narrow powerband, not really. It's got great torque downlow and the power builds all the way to redline
Uh huh...a redline at what, 7500 rpm? Meanwhile a literbike pulls to um....13,000 rpm. I'd call that a narrow powerband.
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its a v-twin you're not gonna get a peaky I4 punch..
Um, right, and so what was deal with comparing the Buell to the literbike anyway?
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not like that has anything to do with it's ability to "carve corners" anyway)
Uh, I don't know about you, but I like to accelerate off the corner...
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One of the things BIKE magazine specifically said about the XB12R is that it was nice that you didn't have downshift all the time to get good drive out of the corners.
Who said anything about downshifting with a literbike? Leave it in one gear if you like. It still goes....
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Please spare us the typical buell bashing and the bs about a XB having compromises when it comes to carving corners since multiple mainstream bike magazines have listed it as one of the best cornering bikes out there.
Two British magazines from the same publishing company does not define "multiple mainstream bike magazines" to me. But that's just me.
Sigh....Like I said before: I'm not "Buell Bashing" (I take it you didn't read the last part of my previous reply); I'm only refuting the BS and misinformation being spread here.
And now back to your regularly scheduled topic....
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enp83
Enthusiast
| Posts: 361
| Joined: 02/05
Posted: 09/07/05
12:04 AM
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I can't speak for those who race the XBs with the rim-brake. And what do stoppies have to do with "carving corners"?
I was commenting on your comment about the XB's "inferior brakes", and to do 800ft+ stoppies you kinda need decent brakes....
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Narrow powerband, not really. It's got great torque downlow and the power builds all the way to redline
Uh huh...a redline at what, 7500 rpm? Meanwhile a literbike pulls to um....13,000 rpm. I'd call that a narrow powerband.
Uh huh...making good power throughout 85% of it's rev range, yep it definately has the powerband of a RS50
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its a v-twin you're not gonna get a peaky I4 punch..
Um, right, and so what was deal with comparing the Buell to the literbike anyway?
If you think I started this thread you need to reread the whole thing from the begining.
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not like that has anything to do with it's ability to "carve corners" anyway)
Uh, I don't know about you, but I like to accelerate off the corner...
Well if you took off your buell bashing blinders you'd appreciate it's the good amount of torque it has across it's wide powerband.
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One of the things BIKE magazine specifically said about the XB12R is that it was nice that you didn't have downshift all the time to get good drive out of the corners.
Who said anything about downshifting with a literbike? Leave it in one gear if you like. It still goes....
You said a XB12 has a narrow powerband, BIKE mag. says its powerband is so wide that you needn't worry about downshifting.
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Please spare us the typical buell bashing and the bs about a XB having compromises when it comes to carving corners since multiple mainstream bike magazines have listed it as one of the best cornering bikes out there.
Two British magazines from the same publishing company does not define "multiple mainstream bike magazines" Like I said before I'm not "Buell Bashing" (I take it you didn't read the last part of my previous reply) I'm only refuting the BS and misinformation being spread here.
Performance Bikes and BIKE magazines were just the two I've listed (other mags have done other tests as well), forgive me for not having an archieve of all motorcycle magazines at my disposal...how silly of me. There have been PLENTY of magazines that praise the XBs handling "when it comes to carving corners." I'm only refuting the BS and misinformation being spread here. 
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 09/07/05
06:19 AM
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Boy, these posts are getting pretty big...
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I can't speak for those who race the XBs with the rim-brake. And what do stoppies have to do with "carving corners"?
I was commenting on your comment about the XB's "inferior brakes", and to do 800ft+ stoppies you kinda need decent brakes....
To do "800ft+ stoppies", all you need are brakes that have plenty of bite (to hoist the bike up to the balance point) along with some decent feel (to keep you at the balance point). I've seen A.C. Farias do lonnnnng stoppies on his special CBR600F3 that had stock '95-era brakes. Interesting factoid: the "factory-sponsored" Buells that competed in the Formula USA Sportbike series used conventional discs in their first year (but now they use the rim-brake).
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Uh huh...a redline at what, 7500 rpm? Meanwhile a literbike pulls to um....13,000 rpm. I'd call that a narrow powerband.
Uh huh...making good power throughout 85% of it's rev range, yep it definately has the powerband of a RS50
Compared to a literbike, sure.
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If you think I started this thread you need to reread the whole thing from the begining.
Never said you did. All I was doing was asking why?
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Uh, I don't know about you, but I like to accelerate off the corner...
Well if you took off your buell bashing blinders you'd appreciate it's the good amount of torque it has across it's wide powerband.
Hey, the Buell does have a "good amount of torque across its wide powerband"-- but so does a literbike. If you took off your "buell can't do anything wrong" paper bag, you'd understand that I'm just keeping "apples with apples" in these counterpoints of mine.
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One of the things BIKE magazine specifically said about the XB12R is that it was nice that you didn't have downshift all the time to get good drive out of the corners.
Who said anything about downshifting with a literbike? Leave it in one gear if you like. It still goes....
You said a XB12 has a narrow powerband, BIKE mag. says its powerband is so wide that you needn't worry about downshifting.
Sorry for the not being more specific, I meant it has a narrow powerband compared to a literbike.
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Performance Bikes and BIKE magazines were just the two I've listed (other mags have done other tests as well), forgive me for not having an archieve of all motorcycle magazines at my disposal...how silly of me. There have been PLENTY of magazines that praise the XBs handling "when it comes to carving corners." I'm only refuting the BS and misinformation being spread here.
You said the two magazines were an example that the "mainstream" motorcycle press said the Buell was the best handling bike ever. Hey, I never said the Buell was a POS that doesn't handle well and can't get out of its own way (although yeah, I guess the "sundial-rivaling" was a bit harsh...just a joke to get peeps worked up). I think they're fun bikes to ride, and as I stated in the reply to your PB magazine link, it was pretty impressive for the Buell to post the apex speeds that it did. But "carving corners" isn't all about apex speeds in slow 25-30 mph bends, or the ability to do 800 ft stoppies.
So to end this continual McCoy/Hatfield drama, for the record:
The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike. The Buell XB12R is a great bike.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...
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Trevitt
Enthusiast
| Posts: 250
| Joined: 11/99
Posted: 09/07/05
06:44 AM
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And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic...
But this is way more entertaining!!
AT
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enp83
Enthusiast
| Posts: 361
| Joined: 02/05
Posted: 09/07/05
08:20 AM
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Yes the Buell can do things wrong, but that list did get a lot shorter when the XBs came out. Never said it was the best handling bike out there, but it's definately one of the best handling bikes out there. One of the best racers out there, ofcourse not.
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zyglob
User
| Posts: 116
| Joined: 11/99
Posted: 09/08/05
01:11 PM
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Have you ever ridden a Gixxer 1000? I can pass ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME in SIXTH GEAR.
And that includes motorhomes!
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