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You go into the curve too hot.....
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spenc954
New User
| Posts: 30
| Joined: 01/05
Posted: 08/27/05
12:06 PM
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I am the Safety Rep for my unit. I guess cause I ride a motorcycle I was the logical choice (military hates motorcycles). I got a message about a soldier who went into a curve at 100 mph and lost it.
We all know about the slow entry, roll the throttle and exit. But a good question came up from a soldier. If you get into the curve and you ARE in too hot. What is your best option. Some say get off the throttle, lean and pray. Others say use a brake (split decision between which, the front or rear) lean and pray. Wondering what other ideas were out there. Send them! Anything to get these guys to think may save a life.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/27/05
01:13 PM
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Your best option is to roll off the throttle (do NOT "chop" or shut off completely) and LOOK into the turn so that you will go there. Stay off the brakes. Continue to lean the bike and stay focused on the exit of the turn. If you panic, you will target fixate on the outside of the corner, causing you to pick up the bike and head in that direction. 9 times out of 10, you'll make the turn without running off the track at all if you stay focused on the exit of the turn.
Braking while leaned over takes great skill, and most riders should stay away from this until they have a great deal of experience at trail braking into a corner. Braking because of entering into a turn too hot is part of panic, and your control actions are never smooth and confident when you're panicking.
Here is a Riding Skill Series on the Sport Rider site that covers the subject well:
http://sportrider.com/ride/146_0204_RSS/
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mcrides
New User
| Posts: 8
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/27/05
07:40 PM
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Quote:
We all know about the slow entry, roll the throttle and exit. But a good question came up from a soldier. If you get into the curve and you ARE in too hot. What is your best option.
This question has an inherent weakness. I'll get to that in a moment.
In the meantime, it depends. Too hot for the rider's abilities or to hot for the bike's abilities. One rider can be thinking he's in way too hot while another rider would breeze by and not notice.
Normally, the bike is way more capable than the rider. In that case, leaning more would be the appropriate solution.
But if you are in really too hot, then continuing at that speed means you will crash. You need to bleed off speed. Applying brakes while leaned if you are too hot almost guarantees a low side.
A good method is to straighten the bike and get on the brakes hard to bleed off some speed and then lean over again. Note, you need to do this quick, without exiting your lane. Done quickly, you will bleed off the excessive 5-10 mph you have allowing you to lean and make the corner.
But the real reason for this problem is that the rider set a corner entry speed blind, without knowing the radius. That's a riding mistake. If you avoid this, you avoid having to pray mid corner.
http://pages.videotron.com/mcrides
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Posted: 08/27/05
09:14 PM
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A 'in general' question yields a 'in general' response.
What is the corner type and approach speed, skill level of
rider etc., Set-up a Q/A in the 'New Riders' forum.
As the Safty Rep. for your unit, prevention is the operative
word.
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spenc954
New User
| Posts: 30
| Joined: 01/05
Posted: 08/27/05
09:53 PM
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I was wondering how long it would take for the "what you should have done response." Hindsight is 20-20. For all the expert, can't do anything wrong riders I will clarify this General Question. YOU on YOUR bike on YOUR favorite curve realize AFTER you enter the curve YOU are going too fast for YOUR skill level. What is YOUR last ditch action to try to save YOUR hide? Then again I thought that was the Subject line.
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mcrides
New User
| Posts: 8
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/28/05
12:01 AM
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Quote:
I was wondering how long it would take for the "what you should have done response." Hindsight is 20-20.
There was no mention of hindsight in my post. But the goal is to use hindsight when available to learn from past outcomes.
There is no one waiting mid corner for you right now to give them a response. So all occurences are future occurences that have yet to happen. Ask any riding instructor and they will tell you that the best approach is to avoid going in too hot. So setting up proper corner entry speed is a critical riding skill.
To review your first question, the proper method is not slow in. It is going in at the correct speed for the corner radius. If you are going in at the correct speed, there is no need to go slow in.
Setting up correct entry speed is a required skill that needs to be developed. Without it, you are forced to go slow in or accept that every corner you enter has a high probability of crash. You are at the mercy of having to pray mid corner. The intent is to avoid those situations not by hindsight but by foresight.
Quote:
For all the expert, can't do anything wrong riders
Experts, like everyone else, can always make mistakes. But they tend to learn from experience.
Quote:
I will clarify this General Question. YOU on YOUR bike on YOUR favorite curve realize AFTER you enter the curve YOU are going too fast for YOUR skill level. What is YOUR last ditch action to try to save YOUR hide? Then again I thought that was the Subject line.
I answered exactly this in my previous post. If there is something about the post that is not clear, just ask.
In the meantime, you're asking a general question that is not focusing in the right place to find a proper solution. It's not about what - I - would do. It's about what the best tactic is for a specific individual. Different tactics work with different experience levels. If Matt Mladin enters a corner too hot, what he can do to resolve it is not the same tactic that you would recommend to a novice rider and vice versa. So asking me what I would do won't necessarily transfer to all the guys you deal with who have unknown and varying levels of experience on different types if bikes.
But as a general recommendation, I would suggest they take a track school or three followed possibly by some track days. This goes a long way to help avoid mid corner praying.
Hope this helps,
http://pages.videotron.com/mcrides
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/28/05
08:03 PM
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Quote:
A good method is to straighten the bike and get on the brakes hard to bleed off some speed and then lean over again. Note, you need to do this quick, without exiting your lane. Done quickly, you will bleed off the excessive 5-10 mph you have allowing you to lean and make the corner.
The problem I see with that option is that generally a novice rider is already on the brakes entering the corner when he realizes he's in too hot, so asking them to straighten up and continue braking will more than likely lead to panic "freeze-up" on the controls and a target fixation on the outside of the corner, which leads to them running off the road or track. An expert or even intermediate rider can maintain their concentration enough to keep focused on the exit of the corner while trail-braking just the right amount to scrub off enough speed to make the turn; a novice rider (which is where this situation develops the most) won't be able to juggle that much concentration. That's why I find it easier to have them think "let off the brake (or throttle if it is, say, a decreasing radius corner), look at the corner exit and keep turning". I've seen plenty of instances on both the street and track where it's saved the rider's (and bike's) hide. And I've seen plenty of times where continued braking has either led them straight off the road/track or overpowering front tire traction from panic braking and crashing right there.
Quote:
But the real reason for this problem is that the rider set a corner entry speed blind, without knowing the radius. That's a riding mistake. If you avoid this, you avoid having to pray mid corner.
If you're riding on the street (or hell, even some tracks that you don't know that well), you're eventually going to encounter a situation where you "don't know the corner radius" and will have to "set the entry speed blind". It's how well you as a rider are able to estimate a safe speed that will allow you to continue to make the corner from what you can see that will make the difference. You will never really know what is the exact entry speed you can take through a corner, because there are plenty of different ways to take a corner.
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Posted: 08/29/05
06:39 PM
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I will admit as I think most will, when "YOU on YOUR bike
on YOUR favorite curve realize AFTER you enter the curve
YOU are going too fast for YOUR skill level." that 'LUCK'
not skill saved the collective hide.( 70/30- 30% skill 70%
luck ) Lucky that a car was not in the other lane- lucky
that the road was free of oil, sand etc., when you have to
tuck her in hard- lucky that there was an exit road to take.
As you are well aware, no two situations are the same- what
worked once may not work again. Again, as the Safty Rep. for
your unit, you know the drill- how many different procedures
are used to teach a recruit to fire a rifle or throw a
grenade??
So, what can you tell your buds in the unit?
General rule 1.
You can double the posted speed in a curve. If posted as
a 15 mph curve you can 'IN GENERAL' set entrance speed at
30 mph. 30 mph curve at 60 mph.
General rule 2.
Follow the 2 second rule- In blind corners the entrance
speed should not exceed a 2 second rate of travel from
corner entry to first visual marker.
These are my 'general rules' only.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/29/05
10:40 PM
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Quote:
General rule 2.
Follow the 2 second rule- In blind corners the entrance speed should not exceed a 2 second rate of travel from corner entry to first visual marker.
These are my 'general rules' only.
Uh, I think it's a little bit too much to be asking a rider to spend concentration counting "1,1000,2,1000" as they come upon a "visual marker" in a corner they don't know; by the time they've noticed that they've passed the marker to check their timing, it's too late for them to deal with the rest of the corner because they're already upon it.
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mcrides
New User
| Posts: 8
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/30/05
02:05 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
A good method is to straighten the bike and get on the brakes hard to bleed off some speed and then lean over again. Note, you need to do this quick, without exiting your lane. Done quickly, you will bleed off the excessive 5-10 mph you have allowing you to lean and make the corner.
The problem I see with that option is that generally a novice rider is already on the brakes entering the corner when he realizes he's in too hot, so asking them to straighten up and continue braking will more than likely lead to panic "freeze-up" on the controls and a target fixation on the outside of the corner, which leads to them running off the road or track.
Answering a general question is tough. There's always a problem with the answer because there are all kinds of variables that can affect the outcome. Some riders are sometimes looking for the fail safe magic pill that will solve a problem of going in too hot. It doesn't exist. The only one that does is setting up correct corner entry so you avoid the problem. Novice riders typically don't have the skills or experience in recovering from going in too hot in a decreasing radius turn. Notice how many crashes occur in the twisties even with more exeprienced riders.
Quote:
An expert or even intermediate rider can maintain their concentration enough to keep focused on the exit of the corner while trail-braking just the right amount to scrub off enough speed to make the turn; a novice rider (which is where this situation develops the most) won't be able to juggle that much concentration. That's why I find it easier to have them think "let off the brake (or throttle if it is, say, a decreasing radius corner), look at the corner exit and keep turning".
That's a sound point. Again the trouble with general questions is that they ask a specific solution to a variable problem.
If the rider is going in way too hot, sometimes he just has too much speed that needs to be bled off. In this case, leaning more will not prevent you from drifting either wide or off road.
This is what Keith Code told me when I took a class at Loudon back in 1984 and I asked him that question as. . . you guessed it,. . . a novice.
But all the basic rules should as looking where you want to go and leaning more ie as Pridmore says, lean or die, are good.
It's just that there are more than 1 pill depending on the specific situation.
Quote:
But the real reason for this problem is that the rider set a corner entry speed blind, without knowing the radius. That's a riding mistake. If you avoid this, you avoid having to pray mid corner.
If you're riding on the street (or hell, even some tracks that you don't know that well), you're eventually going to encounter a situation where you "don't know the corner radius" and will have to "set the entry speed blind".
If you notice, this is not something that racers do. When they don't know a track, they walk it and ride it slowly, Two years ago Jeff Wood came to Mosport for a Superbike race. During practice sessions, his laps were way slow, near the bottom of the field. In qualifying, his pace picked up considerably.
Quote:
If you're riding on the street (or hell, even some tracks that you don't know that well), you're eventually going to encounter a situation where you "don't know the corner radius" and will have to "set the entry speed blind". It's how well you as a rider are able to estimate a safe speed that will allow you to continue to make the corner from what you can see that will make the difference. You will never really know what is the exact entry speed you can take through a corner, because there are plenty of different ways to take a corner.
That's a personal riding choice. Not saying that it's good or bad. We all do it at some point. But I do know that both Keith Code and Reg Pridmore would disagree.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/30/05
02:35 PM
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Quote:
Some riders are sometimes looking for the fail safe magic pill that will solve a problem of going in too hot. It doesn't exist. The only one that does is setting up correct corner entry so you avoid the problem.
Well, that's pretty obvious. But the original question is "what happens if you do?" No one is immune to mistakes.
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Novice riders typically don't have the skills or experience in recovering from going in too hot in a decreasing radius turn. Notice how many crashes occur in the twisties even with more exeprienced riders.
No, they don't, but that doesn't mean you can't enforce good habits in them, including gaining confidence in leaning their bike, and staying focused on where they want to go, not where they're afraid of going...
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If the rider is going in way too hot, sometimes he just has too much speed that needs to be bled off. In this case, leaning more will not prevent you from drifting either wide or off road.
Well, basically if he's "going in way too hot", that usually means that he has "too much speed that needs to be bled off." No, continued leaning will not prevent you from drifting wide, but neither will standing the bike up and braking. You're going to drift wide no matter what, because by the time you realize that you're in too hot, the delayed reaction from any corrections will be far too late to have an effect.
I'm not saying that learning to brake while turning isn't a good skill to have, nor that the method you're espousing isn't a good one to use. I am saying that it's a skill that novices should leave until after they've first gained confidence in leaning their bike.
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If you notice, this is not something that racers do. When they don't know a track, they walk it and ride it slowly, Two years ago Jeff Wood came to Mosport for a Superbike race. During practice sessions, his laps were way slow, near the bottom of the field. In qualifying, his pace picked up considerably.
Well, that's basically what all racers do; if all racers just charged into corners during their first visit to a circuit, obviously no one would learn anything. However, there will always be situations where you will enter a corner a bit faster than you're used to, whether it's overtaking on a racetrack, or a lapse of concentration on the road. Learning how to deal with the situation without panicking is the key to completing the pass on the track/survival on the road. There will always be situations where you don't know the "radius of the turn". Entering the turn at a safe speed for you as a rider is the obvious part.
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scorpion
User
| Posts: 85
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/31/05
08:09 PM
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Quote:
I was wondering how long it would take for the "what you should have done response." Hindsight is 20-20. For all the expert, can't do anything wrong riders I will clarify this General Question. YOU on YOUR bike on YOUR favorite curve realize AFTER you enter the curve YOU are going too fast for YOUR skill level. What is YOUR last ditch action to try to save YOUR hide? Then again I thought that was the Subject line.
for the master rider who cant do anything wrong answer, go check out the video of the Donnington MotoGP race. Watch Rossi nearly lose it in turns during the first half of the race. he learned adjusted and kicked tail.
what did i do???
I realized i was too hot because i missed my downshift before turn 13 at jennings GP. i decided to just pick the bike up and ride as safely into the grass.
if it was a road, i'd get off the throttle a bit and readjust my weight to lean as much as possible...
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