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MotoGP Downgrading?
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Posted: 08/29/05
04:33 PM
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ok you do get it. then why are they doing it? which also reminds me to ask you this since your so smart dude. why did they end the 750 class in the ama and why dont they bring it back? id love to see them bring back the kawi 750s and maybe see them bring back a r7 of some sort.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/29/05
05:00 PM
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Quote:
ok you do get it. then why are they doing it?
It's the usual knee-jerk answer to a question that really hasn't been asked yet. The monster 200+mph speeds at some of the tracks these past few years (plus the unfortunate death of Daijiro Kato) have made the FIM and Dorna nervous, so they're going the simple-minded route to "slowing the bikes down". Unfortunately, racing is racing, and the factory teams are always going to find a way to get more horsepower, whether the engine is 990cc, 800cc, or 500cc. If they want to slow the bikes down, they're going to have to come up with a way to limit the power or traction, or both.
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why did they end the 750 class in the ama and why dont they bring it back? id love to see them bring back the kawi 750s and maybe see them bring back a r7 of some sort.
The problem is that the sole reason for the 750 class' existence on the showroom floor was the superbike class. But the actual number of 750s sold over the years has been pitifully small compared to 600s and 1000s, and now that the superbike class has gone to full literbikes, all the manufacturers are basically dumping any thoughts of making a 750...except Suzuki, who have a lot of pride in their GSX-R750, and deservedly so. Actually, ever since the late 80s, all the other manufacturers have treated the 750 class as more of an annoyance than anything else, only offering a 750 as a very expensive "limited production/edition" model so that it can be legal for superbike racing.
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cyclops
New User
| Posts: 26
| Joined: 07/04
Posted: 08/29/05
06:44 PM
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990cc vs. 800cc race bikes is sorta like comparing a gsx-r 750 vs. a cbr 600rr or a r6, the smaller bike's will corner better but they won't jump out of the corner like a bigger bike thus taking longer to reach top speed witch inproves safety by (possibility) not reaching top speed by the next turn
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Posted: 08/29/05
07:07 PM
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Quote:
990cc vs. 800cc race bikes is sorta like comparing a gsx-r 750 vs. a cbr 600rr or a r6, the smaller bike's will corner better but they won't jump out of the corner like a bigger bike thus taking longer to reach top speed witch inproves safety by (possibility) not reaching top speed by the next turn
Maybe.... Now the Big 4 and who ever else wants to compete will actually have to throw some F1 type technology at the engine to keep the higher power outputs--pnuematic valves, berylium pistons.... The current 990cc enginges make big power, but there isn't anything revolutionary about them except maybe the firing order.
I don't see the bikes being much slower. They'll spin them faster to make almost as much hp as they do now. I think they'll be harder to ride, so only the best riders will be competitive.
As an aside, Hopkins re-upped for 2 more years with Suzuki.
Chris
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 08/29/05
07:16 PM
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Improve safety? Probably not since the big manufacturers with lots of resources will get the 800cc as fast or even faster than the current 990cc bikes.
The move to 800cc may actually degrade safety as the bikes may become harder to ride, peakier and perhaps even more like the 500s of yore. Another possibility is MotoGP becomes more Formula One-like with ultra-sophisticated electronics, control systems and "rider aids".
One things for certain with the 800cc rule- MotoGP is going to get even more expensive and the smaller teams might literally be run out of business.
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Posted: 08/30/05
12:39 PM
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Another possibility is MotoGP becomes more Formula One-like with ultra-sophisticated electronics, control systems and "rider aids".
That is defently a big no no. Rossi's teammate and Yamaha rider Colin Edwards even said that MotoGP technology is starting to take the rider's needs out of the equation, and that the computers are not matching it appropriately. If a rider feels that a bike setup isn't right for the track, but all the caluclations, data, and computers show that the current setup is ideal, who are you going to believe? The guy who experiences it firsthand, or the computer?
www.MinimotoGP.tk
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Posted: 08/30/05
02:05 PM
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I can see how it wont work with suspension settings but i think he was talking more along the lines of ecus and what not. the advance electricals they use in f1 to lean and richen and watch power out put. motorcycle suspensions are more complicated in a sense then a cars suspension is. but i think they can benifit from some of the technology to make it safer. like have it wired so that there are sensors around the track and if it senses that the bike is going to hot to make a corner or its reached a point and its going overly faster than it should it like leans down the motor and slows it down. or something like that. i dont know just shooting out ideas. but there are some ways they can make it safer without downgrading ccs.
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Posted: 08/30/05
02:12 PM
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That be pretty neat, but I think it would be a little costly. I think for know they just need more gravel traps and need to expand the runoff areas everywhere so that if a bikes throttle should stick open or run the turn wide, it can slow down/stop before careening into a wall. Note: I use the Daijiro Kato & Ayrton Senna fatalities as examples for this...
www.MinimotoGP.tk
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Posted: 08/30/05
02:40 PM
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ive just been hit with a stroke of genuis or a stupid stick. lol. has anyone seen the demolition man with stalone? well in it towards the end when he hops in the 442 and then on to snipes police car and he kicks snipes out blah blah. well after the controls get messed up and he goes flying into the police station fountain and before he hits or whatever the car fills with that safety foam stuff. they need to make something like that for the bike. so if they do crash they get enclosed in a bubble of saftey foam lol.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/30/05
04:07 PM
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Quote:
One things for certain with the 800cc rule- MotoGP is going to get even more expensive and the smaller teams might literally be run out of business.
Looks like it already has. KTM sure left Team Roberts holding the bag last week...
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 08/30/05
04:16 PM
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Not so sure it's much of a loss. 
I suppose it's up to lawyers to duke it out.
http://crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=6&nid=117057
It seems a dog of a GP motor in a dog of a GP bike = a slow bike that isn't much more than GP grid filler. Shakey Byrne might be a former BSB champion but I'm not so sure he's the best man for the job in GP and with the Team KR small budget and lack of competitive bike... I guess they can't get anyone better for the job, either.
Ilmor is supposedly getting into the MotoGP engine business. Maybe they can succeed where Cosworth and Aprilia failed...
http://crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=6&nid=116997
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jswledhed
New User
| Posts: 8
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/30/05
04:28 PM
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Quote:
I can see how it wont work with suspension settings but i think he was talking more along the lines of ecus and what not. the advance electricals they use in f1 to lean and richen and watch power out put. motorcycle suspensions are more complicated in a sense then a cars suspension is. but i think they can benifit from some of the technology to make it safer. like have it wired so that there are sensors around the track and if it senses that the bike is going to hot to make a corner or its reached a point and its going overly faster than it should it like leans down the motor and slows it down. or something like that. i dont know just shooting out ideas. but there are some ways they can make it safer without downgrading ccs.
H*ll no! The last thing we need in motorcycle racing is electronic intervention. Any system that actively monitors and alters the performance of the bike should be remain absent in racing. Map the fuel injection and ignition during practice and qualifying then leave it up to the rider.
They just need to add some runoff room and gravel traps. 
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/30/05
05:53 PM
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Quote:
It seems a dog of a GP motor in a dog of a GP bike = a slow bike that isn't much more than GP grid filler.
The motor isn't so much slow (its top-end speeds through many speed traps were more than competitive) as it is a lack of torque. Byrne complained that the engine needs more torque to jump off the turns so that he doesn't have to keep it revved up, which ends up causing too much tire spin and/or chassis windup.
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Shakey Byrne might be a former BSB champion but I'm not so sure he's the best man for the job in GP and with the Team KR small budget and lack of competitive bike... I guess they can't get anyone better for the job, either.
Again, I'm not going to pre-judge Byrne based simply on his results on an uncompetitive machine; pounding on the competition in both legs of a WSB event at Brands Hatch is no small feat. However, KTM was paying his salary, so I don't think that Roberts had to "settle" for Byrne.
Nonetheless, it's sad to see Roberts in the position he's been in for the past several years. It took balls to do what he's done, and he deserves credit for what he's done for the sport; I'd hate to see him leave GP racing with this legacy as the most recent footnote.
The problem I see with Ilmor developing their own engine is that they're from the same mold as Cosworth; they're car guys, so they don't think about torque the way motorcycle racers do, since open-wheel cars don't really need it. Hopefully someone with bike experience will show them what's needed. Too bad they weren't farther along in the development of the motor, although I guess Roberts is short of funds, nevermind the lack of engine.
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 08/31/05
08:53 PM
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Regardless, the end result is slow lap times, although, they can take comfort in being consistently faster than the WCM bikes.
Shakey still owns the Brands Hatch lap record- a feat not likely to be broken with the spec-tire WSB anytime soon.
It would be sad to see KR out of GP. The King has been the American presence in GP for the last 20+ years.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/31/05
09:13 PM
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Yep, doesn't matter how fast you are if your lap times aren't there. I doubt they take solace in the fact that they're quicker than the WCM bikes. And what about the Blata V-6? I knew that was a pipe dream...
Actually, Shakey will always have one Brands Hatch record; the track layout was altered slightly in the back section this year, shortening the circuit length a bit.
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