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Up-shifts - clutchless or clutch tap
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Posted: 07/01/05
09:47 PM
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"Troy Bayliss used to do this all the time during his WSB
days wtih Ducati."
True, but I also read that Ducati had to re-place trans.
parts alot.
As Jackie Steward of F1 road racing used to say, the trans-
mission is for acceleration the brakes are for de-accel-
leration. This process is sufficient for the street.
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 07/02/05
09:02 AM
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Quote:
True, but I also read that Ducati had to re-place trans.
parts alot.
As Jackie Steward of F1 road racing used to say, the trans-
mission is for acceleration the brakes are for de-accel-
leration. This process is sufficient for the street.
I agree.
Which brings me back to my question- why? When the potential for accelerated transmission wear or even damage is greater with clutchless shifting? Does it shave time off or commute or take seconds off our lap time at our next trackday?
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 07/03/05
12:51 PM
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Quote:
It would be almost impossible to downshift smoothly without the clutch Why? because you cant blip the throttle to match the revs necessary to mate correctly with the lower gear. if you dont realese the turning wheel and transmission from the motor how is the motor going to get to the necessary revs, usually a couple thousand above the next gear, to match correctly? IT WONT. The compression breaking will not allow it.
Sorry, but it will if done correctly . Granted, it definitely takes some skill, but if you blip the throttle at the exact moment the downshift is done, the operation is as smooth as if you've used the clutch.
A motorcycle transmission changes gears by sliding a gearset on the transmission shaft over to the next engagement dogs; during the time the gearset is moving over, the transmission is essentially in neutral, which is where the revs are free. Blipping the throttle is possible at this point, and the gear engagement is basically the same as if you'd used the clutch.
Of course, this is something that should only be tried by expert riders, but it's not impossible. With today's close-ratio transmissions, you don't need to gain a lot of revs for the downshift, because the spacing is already fairly close (unless you're downshifting from 6th all the way down to 2nd or 1st gear-- then the clutch will definitely help). If you blip the throttle and get it close enough, the engine will pull itself to match rpm to road speed; it doesn't need to be absolutely perfect.
Quote:
Trust me if you could downshift without why would ALL guys use the clutch
Besides the Bayliss example, watch the 250 Grand Prix riders closely as they're braking for the corner. Look at their left hand-- many of them never touch the clutch lever, they simply bang downshifts.
Granted, this is all academic for street riding. Downshifting without the clutch takes skill, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone but expert riders. Shifting without the clutch isn't really going to help in any way on the street, other than making it less effort to accomplish shifts. There is no excessive wear that will occur with the transmission if done correctly. Yes, some bikes, like Buells, don't like to shift without the clutch due to their heavy flywheels. But there's no doubt that learning to clutchless upshift smoothly helps with riding on the track.
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Goose
New User
| Posts: 31
| Joined: 01/05
Posted: 07/03/05
01:33 PM
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Guys read carefully. Key words--almost impossibly to downshift smoothly. Every example you guys have given me where clutchless downshifting is used is in a racing application(where downshifts arn't smooth)nothing in any type of racing is smooth, easy on the machine, or non wearing. Do you think those guys give a f u c k about the mechanics that have to work on their tramsmissions. How many trannies did they screw up as a result of learning how to downshift smoothly. You see them doing it because they got the sponsers backing them. You all are taking Glens original question out of context, which was: ok i didn't know you could do that on purpose now can you downshift without the clutch. I dont think glen is troy baliss or races in the 250 grand prix. I also know glen doesn't want to go through several tranny rebuilds to learn how to downshift without the clutch, and quess what he or the racers still cant do it smoothly. Most racers cant evan match reves when using the clutch,which is why they use a slipper cutch. It takes more time and consentration to do it without.
quote:A motorcycle transmission changes gears by sliding a gearset on the transmission shaft over to the next engagement dogs; during the time the gearset is moving over, the transmission is essentially in neutral, which is where the revs are free. Blipping the throttle is possible at this point, and the gear engagement is basically the same as if you'd used the clutch.
Hey man all glen and i want to do is ride our bikes without screwing anything up, as soon as you start matching rev's with the lower gear that instant your between gears and then snick into the next gear i'll do it to since its possible to do smoothly--ya right. And also i didn't realize be saying "all riders" you would think i was talking about that .0001 that actually go to the track or race in the 250 gp. who cares about the 99.999 that dont go to the track.
Great advice telling someone whos probably only been on a motorcycle a year or less he can downshift smoothly. What next: Hey Glen you can whellie too. All you have to do is clutch it and turn the throttle
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Posted: 07/03/05
04:48 PM
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In drag racing or road racing, .10's of a second matter.
Any technique or trick part that can give you a tenth of
a second improvement is worth the 'cost'-if it means a top
five or podium finish.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 07/03/05
06:28 PM
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Quote:
Guys read carefully. Key words--almost impossibly to downshift smoothly. Every example you guys have given me where clutchless downshifting is used is in a racing application(where downshifts arn't smooth)nothing in any type of racing is smooth, easy on the machine, or non wearing.
This coming from someone who obviously has never raced....
FYI, if you aren't smooth in your control actions on the track, you end up fighting the bike and going slower, and possibly even crashing...
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Do you think those guys give a f u c k about the mechanics that have to work on their tramsmissions. How many trannies did they screw up as a result of learning how to downshift smoothly. You see them doing it because they got the sponsers backing them.
Again, someone spewing about something they know nothing about. If it's so rough on the transmission, why would a rider risk the engine failing during the race from such mistreatment? And they don't "give a f@*k about the mechanics"? I know I wouldn't want to have that attitude to someone who is working on the bike that I risk my life upon.
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I dont think glen is troy baliss or races in the 250 grand prix.
That's why I said this is something for expert riders only. This was in response to those who said it was "nearly impossible".
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quess what he or the racers still cant do it smoothly. Most racers cant evan match reves when using the clutch,which is why they use a slipper cutch. It takes more time and consentration to do it without.
The reason for a slipper clutch is to make the rider's job easier, not because "they can't do it". Make the rider's job easier, and he goes faster.
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Hey man all glen and i want to do is ride our bikes without screwing anything up, as soon as you start matching rev's with the lower gear that instant your between gears and then snick into the next gear i'll do it to since its possible to do smoothly--ya right. And also i didn't realize be saying "all riders" you would think i was talking about that .0001 that actually go to the track or race in the 250 gp. who cares about the 99.999 that dont go to the track.
Great advice telling someone whos probably only been on a motorcycle a year or less he can downshift smoothly. What next: Hey Glen you can whellie too. All you have to do is clutch it and turn the throttle
You obviously didn't read all of my post. Might want to check the last section that said "this is for expert riders" again...
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TEvo
Enthusiast
| Posts: 322
| Joined: 10/02
Posted: 07/03/05
07:57 PM
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The top guys where tenths are all that matters all run powershifters (drag racing) or ignition interrupt quickshifters (roadracing- e.g., PowerCommander, Yoshimura EMS). So this is a moot point.
For the typical trackday rider or novice club racer, this is also a moot point when there is so much more to work on that can cut seconds per lap, not just tenths. IMHO.
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Goose
New User
| Posts: 31
| Joined: 01/05
Posted: 07/03/05
07:58 PM
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Wheelspin, its been a nice argument. I really don't know what I'm trying to prove anymore, because so many things are being argued. So unless I make a Thesis and Antithesis clarifying what I want to prove and disprove, we'll be arguing the same points all year,and I don't want to take that much time. So I will say this. Your factual information about the internals of the transmission are correct, as well as the methoids used to downshift without the clutch, but where and when you go about this method differ as much as our opinions. Yes, the racetrack is a place where this comes into play, but not for the street, which you did clarify by saying its for experts only. I was making no attempts to discredit your information, I was simply playing the devils advocate, saying the complexity, time, and money spent to profect clutchless downshifts is more than a street rider can afford. This is what I was trying to prove from the begining when TeVO made it sound so simple. My statements, taken in the context of which this post started out as, are correct. Yes I may know little about racing, but I know what the riders put their bikes through is abusive, which is why their motors and many other things do break down in a race, which is why few street riders emulate the racers. Next time I see a racer I'll ask im if he thinks its better to use the clutch or not, but I bet each racers opinions will differ as much as ours. Almost impossible---almost refers to the majority of riders, as you described as experts only, I never said all. Hey I guess we wern't arguing at all, we were just agreeing in a totaly different perspective. As for the impossible, we'll leave that up to Tom Cruise. Peace Man.
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Posted: 07/04/05
08:56 PM
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A rhetorical question, I mis-read your post.
Agreed, visual, mental and physical training as well as
improved riding technique will yield greater gains.
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Dunlop
New User
| Posts: 20
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/28/05
09:35 PM
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I giggle at people who don't use their clutch to up shift or down shift on the street. What are you? Joe Road-racer? Shaving .10s of a second getting to the next stop light or rest stop?
For the record I use the clutch on the street. I also use the clutch on the track for the most part unless I need to hammer my tranny to get past somebody.
TEvo has got it right: learning how to ride fast and smooth pays bigger dividends than hammering on your equipment when it isn't necessary.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/29/05
04:14 PM
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Quote:
I giggle at people who don't use their clutch to up shift or down shift on the street. What are you? Joe Road-racer? Shaving .10s of a second getting to the next stop light or rest stop?
For the record I use the clutch on the street. I also use the clutch on the track for the most part unless I need to hammer my tranny to get past somebody.
TEvo has got it right: learning how to ride fast and smooth pays bigger dividends than hammering on your equipment when it isn't necessary.
I laugh at people that think shifting without the clutch "hammers on your equipment". Please read my previous post in this thread on why that is completely false.
And for those who can do it easily, it's not because they're trying to be "Joe Racer"; it's because it requires less effort than using the clutch every single time they shift (especially on the track), or it might be because they feel like it. Regardless, done correctly, shifting without the clutch does not result in blown transmissions and wrecked clutches.
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Posted: 08/29/05
04:25 PM
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in my opinion if you think clutchless up shifts is hard on the tranny you probably also think double clutching is when you press the clutch in twice. if clutchless up shifts were so abusive racers wouldnt do it. they wouldnt risk *** the tranny up and losing a race over the tenth of a seccond it takes to clutch it now would they? if it was really that bad they wouldnt do it. they do abuse there bikes sometimes but they depend on it to be reliable and last them the race. which obviously it doesnt harm reliability
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Dunlop
New User
| Posts: 20
| Joined: 08/05
Posted: 08/30/05
09:28 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I giggle at people who don't use their clutch to up shift or down shift on the street. What are you? Joe Road-racer? Shaving .10s of a second getting to the next stop light or rest stop?
For the record I use the clutch on the street. I also use the clutch on the track for the most part unless I need to hammer my tranny to get past somebody.
TEvo has got it right: learning how to ride fast and smooth pays bigger dividends than hammering on your equipment when it isn't necessary.
I laugh at people that think shifting without the clutch "hammers on your equipment". Please read my previous post in this thread on why that is completely false.
And for those who can do it easily, it's not because they're trying to be "Joe Racer"; it's because it requires less effort than using the clutch every single time they shift (especially on the track), or it might be because they feel like it. Regardless, done correctly, shifting without the clutch does not result in blown transmissions and wrecked clutches.
You're remarkably defensive. I can shift up and down easily as well. But why do it unless you need it gain just enough to make a pass? As far as not being hard on transmissions: how long have you been doing this? I've had to go through several transmissions from hammering on them over time.
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919
User
| Posts: 83
| Joined: 11/04
Posted: 08/30/05
09:58 PM
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What exactly is double-clutching? I have heard this term many times but I have no idea what it means.
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wheelspin
Enthusiast
| Posts: 318
| Joined: 05/05
Posted: 08/30/05
10:29 PM
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Quote:
You're remarkably defensive.
"Remarkably defensive"? I just term it "calling people on BS when I see it." OK, perhaps the "laugh" term was a bit harsh, but it was only a reference to the "giggle"...
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But why do it unless you need it gain just enough to make a pass?
Because it takes less effort. It does no harm to the transmission, and the shift is quick enough that it's actually smoother than if you use the clutch.
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As far as not being hard on transmissions: how long have you been doing this?
Oh, about 25 years, with about 17 of those racing...
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I've had to go through several transmissions from hammering on them over time.
Sorry to hear that. I've never had to replace a transmission from shifting clutchless, and I've yet to see one with damage caused by it. And I've torn apart many transmissions, so if there was a problem, I would've noticed it.
No offense, but perhaps you need to be a little easier on your equipment. And if you attribute it to clutchless shifting, then you probably should stick with using the clutch.
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